I’m honestly surprised they’re still updating Java edition
That’s the version people actually play, and which has the furthest developed systems to do bigger stuff. Look up PaperMC, it enables some wild stuff for Minecraft multiplayer.
The server options available for multiplayer in Bedrock are truly pathetic in comparison.
I know. I’ve seen a lot of videos on the differences between Java and Bedrock, how Bedrock came to be, modding on Java like Feed The Beast, and multiplayer servers like 2BT2 (for those that don’t know FitMC has some good vidoes on 2B2T; it’s a neat rabbit hole to go down if you want to kill sometime).
What I am saying is I am surprised that Microsoft is still updating Java when there’s so much money to be made nickle and diming players in Bedrock edition. Like paying for skins for example. It would definitely piss off a lot of the player base but I don’t know if it would cause them to lose money in the long run. I imagine a lot of casual players are content using Bedrock and unaware of why Java is important.
Minecraft is already on the way out of the Zeitgeist of cultural relevance. The minecraft audience is mostly nostalgic grown ups now. Bedrock is kept alive by parents trying to have quality time with their kids on a safer or easier to maintain server space. The truly passionate and obsessed users, doing crazy and innovative stuff to their servers are still on Java edition. Kill Java and you kill Minecraft for all practical intents and purposes.
Kids are playing roblox now anyways.
I feel like Minecraft surges in popularity pretty regularly. As long as people continue streaming it and posting videos of it I think that’ll remain the same. I don’t know if someone who is looking for a taste of what they saw online will know the limitations of Bedrock. They might just pick it up because it’s available on whatever platform they use.
I suppose killing Java might put a stop to the content that is being created with Minecraft and that might cause it lose its relevance but I don’t know if a majority of content creators are using Java or Bedrock.
Streamers almost exclusively use Java. There are certain popular games and mods that are only possible and/or easier to setup on JE. Achievement Hunter was one of the rare channels that used the console version at first and even them changed to the JE eventually. But they are not relevant anymore, weren’t for some time before their closure. Hyper massive servers, custom maps, automated gamerules with scripts, most of those things that make Minecraft creative and interesting to watch exist only on the JE.
Achievement Hunter is what made me wonder. I knew they used Java for Galacticraft but I thought they used Bedrock for pretty much everything else.
I also don’t know how popular streaming Bedrock multiplayer servers is. I think they are called Realms.
The service for JE is called Realms and for Bedrock it’s Realms Plus. Certain server side mods aren’t possible on bedrock.
Nah.
Distance horizons is amazing.
Never seen so much buzz thanks to distance horizons and now every shader is building in compatibility to make some truely stunning visuals. Let alone the insanely amazing mods packs and general content!
It’s funny you bring that up. Because it’s par for the course. Bedrock is the prettier Minecraft, but JE is the gameplay Minecraft. Flashy shaders and shitty LOD have their splash for a few days. But ultimately they are not what Minecraft is about. Same thing happened with ray tracing. People think they want to play with those things because they’re shiny, but then they realize their old hardware can’t run it without lag, so they go back to their obby maps and squid game servers that look like shit but run at 60fps and are actually fun.
I mean, I’m running high detail shaders and distant horizons and my game runs like butter, as does my partner’s who has a 2060 ti.
You’d be amazed how well fabric java Minecraft can run. For me there is zero point in even entertaining the idea of using bedrock.
I also run a java server with the geyser mod which means that bedrock players can play on it if they need to.
Java will always be the superior Minecraft version.
I agree for shaders, but distant horizons brings a level of immersion i have no felt to the game in a long time. Add this with the mod packs and its so good! (Ages fan here)
I wonder how many times I’ve seen people say Minecraft is out of relevance and yet…
I didn’t say it is out of relevance. I said it is on its way out of cultural relevance. As in, it’s slowly dwindling over time. Nothing extremely popular disappears over night. It will take decades. And it’s not that I don’t like it, I bought Minecraft on alpha 1 and something. 14 years ago. Have played every single update until recently, and played almost everything it has to offer.
However much I love it, I can also recognize that it is no longer like the heyday of popularity around 2015, when the default YouTube page was plastered with Minecraft let’s plays, and the only non-Minecraft streamers on the newly minted Twitch brand were WoW players and speed runners. Kids are no longer making Minecraft fanfic comics, and there’s fewer Minecraft themed birthdays. Again, the average Minecraft player has a higher chance of having kids by now than being a kid themselves.
Kids are all playing Bedrock on their Switches and iPads. Microsoft is just passing the long game.
Java is quite popular online due to all the mods and the videos people upload to YouTube using those mods, but I believe in terms of number of users, Bedrock outscores it quite a bit. The barrier to entry is lower – $7 on iOS/Android and most people have phones.
actually bedrock servers are way more capable, bedrock has proper reconnect packets, custom ui frameworks (i.e. servers can do proper themed guis that look fucking awesome instead of relying on chests) and custom 3d models.
which they sell to you through microtransactions
???
this has nothing to do with my commentI’m just saying that yes bedrock (and it’s server) may have better mod features, but the mods end up being sold on the minecraft marketplace or whatever anyway. Yes you can download and install mods for free, but I bet the majority of players just buy them.
I’m talking about features available to server software, not addons.
bedrock servers can use custom 3d models natively, build fully custom native uis (instead of relying on chests) and reconnect players to other servers without resorting to terrible hacks like on the java edition
also bedrock server software itself is objectively much more efficient, there’s no point of even comparing it to the java server software, even unofficial servers like papermc.It’s the main reason why cubecraft’s CTF mode is severely limited on the java edition, they basically crippled it just to allow the server to keep up
yes, the marketplace sucks ass but my point still stands.
People already pirate Java to shit, if they made it unavailable than that immediately legitimizes all of it under the game preservation argument.
Any argument in favour of respecting the minecraft copyright went out the window wheb The Hated One sold out the playerbase to microsoft for two billions.
Yeah, open source it you FUCK !
Does FFA stand for free for all?
I used better language this time
Genuine question: why does bedrock exist? What does it bring? Why is there the choice between java, bedrock and “Minecraft for windows”?
How do you fuck up this badly?
I tried using the launcher to move a java install from C: to another drive and it just points there and doesn’t do anything? Steam had this stuff figured years ago
Minecraft rewritten for better performance with platform interoperability in mind and so on. Essentially what could’ve or should’ve been a replacement to Minecraft if done right. It was not done right. Quite the opposite.
In what world is c++ better for cross platform than Java?
In a world with consoles. Java needs a JVM, and those aren’t typical with things like the Switch (2 soon), PS5, and Xbox Series (half the alphabet).
Oh ok that’s fair enough. I forget those exist sometimes.
You forget consoles exist?
I think they meant JVMs.
Yeah, except retro consoles.
C++ is generally more performant than Java.
https://programming-language-benchmarks.vercel.app/java-vs-cpp
What’s that got to do with making things cross platform? Java programs only need to run in a Java runtime environment of which there’s one for basically everything. If you make something that runs in a JRE, it’ll be able to run on any device with a JRE that’s up to date for it.
given how many targets are supported by llvm there’s really little difference in cross platform support asides from building artifacts for the specific target platform. wrapping package delivery in a package manager removes the additional complexity to the end user.
Minecraft Java runs like dog shit. Making a faster port of it was worth it. They just botched it because Microsoft got its hands on it.
Oh yeah that totally explains why it’s always been perfectly fine for me as long as I’m not looking at a giant wall of those shelves that display their contents from whatever modpack that was.
Bedrock routinely outperforms java.
https://piped.video/watch?v=qLjOIulsNcM
https://piped.video/watch?v=Z4GrbD2MA5o
https://piped.video/watch?v=p_mCekWWW_8
Just because you’re perfectly fine doesn’t mean all other machines are.
Good thing we have Minetest and Vintage Story!
Because Bedrock runs on phones, tablets, consoles, and a host of other random crap, and does so relatively well. Because of that the install base and playtime especially among younger players is actually massively skewed toward Bedrock being the more used. Add to that rumors that the Java codebase at least was a terrible mess, and the performance issues Java edition still has to this day and it’s no wonder they wanted to do a full rewrite, especially after having to make things like the console editions and even one for the 3DS.
The windows launcher is annoying though.
Because Bedrock runs on phones, tablets, consoles, and a host of other random crap
And it also removes Linux support. Typical Microsoft.
To be fair there’s a Linux version of the bedrock server. But yeah not having it on the steam deck is pretty annoying.
Go into desktop mode, there’s a bedrock launcher in the package manager store thing, I forgot the names of both of those things, but search “Minecraft” and you should find it. Anyway, it basically loads the Android version of the game. It works pretty well. I play bedrock because everyone I play with is on Xbox
Fairly certain I’ve had both versions working on our steam deck. It’s pretty straight forward like you’re saying.
Linux and mac and any other x86 compatible platform that runs java…
Bedrock not Java.
Yes exactly. Java runs on Windows, macOS, Linux and any x86 compatible operating system that supports the Java runtime environment. Minecraft bedrock removes support for all of those but Windows.
And adds support for Playstation, Xbox, Switch, Android, iOS…
They all had minecraft before bedrock was a thing yet. That legacy minecraft without crossplay just got replaced by bedrock.
There’s also the fact that Bedrock patches bugs that the Java community freaks out about patching. Several chunk update glitches and undesirable redstone behavior are exploited by the Java players, and they go nuts over the idea of fixing the issues. Bedrock, being a new codebase, obviously didn’t port over old crusty bugs and therefore doesn’t have to carry over those expectations.
To be fair I’d call it a wash. Bedrock fixes a lot of weird stuff like quasi connectivity and being able to push things like chests with pistons but also introduces it’s own bugs like weird timing things and randomly taking fall damage. There’s also weird differences like being able to do things with cauldrons or just like minor texture differences that they are slowly bringing into sync.
Thanks for the info + @kadu@lemmy.world & @Opisek@lemmy.world
Also swapped performance issues with more bugs that were there years ago and still persist because they are almost impossible to fix.
In the end, we all know it was done either because they wanted to shove microtransactions down our throat and/or had some kind of deal to maintain the Java edition without microtransactions.
Or, maybe, just maybe, they though “it’s just a block game, what could be so hard to rewrite it?” and absolutely failed what a single person got right almost immediately back in the day (like not falling through the floor all the time).
rumors
You can remove that word, rly.
Java is a hilariously bad platform for games.
Only if you’re incompetent. Otherwise just not optimal.
Starsector, Rise to Ruins and Project Zomboid run well and are made in Java for example. It’s harder to pull off but it can be done. (still needs native libraries though)
No it isn’t
What makes you say that? I’m genuinely curious
Minecraft. Runescape. Mindustry. Slay the Spire. Project Zomboid. Doodle Jump. Shattered Pixel Dungeon. Delver. Lots of mobile games. Also It’s rediculous to say Java is inappropriate for games when C# is used for games via Unity (unity is the value proposition there - c# is very similar to Java)
Java is (or at least used to be) one of the first languages new programmers started with.
Making it very accessible to create new mods.
I haven’t modded as of yet but I started off with Java and am now a C# Dev and the transition wasn’t too hard since most of the same principles apply to both languages. Unity games, that are often written in C# to me are the most moddable ones, especially considering that there’s a ecosystem for Unity mods out of the box
Honestly? Most large companies are more like high school. It’s all, friend groups, people rubbing each other’s backs, and in-fighting between departments.
A lot of VERY LARGE decisions get made for the stupidest reason.
Is there even a choice? You now get both games when you buy one(and you get the other game for free if you already own one) and you can play on bedrock on java servers with geysermc
I accidentally bought Minecraft for windows for someone when I wanted java… so that was fun.
The launcher just says “here are the options” it doesn’t say why you might want to choose one over another. Ive played since day 0 so I’ve always gone with java.
Just felt like if bedrock was meant to replace java they should have just done it and dealt with it instead of having so many choices.
Minecraft for windows is the old name for bedrock.
it was based on the same MCPE codebase
They saw an opportunity to charge for mods on consoles.
Famously always goes over well.
Java > Bedrock
F*ck M$ for even making Bedrock…
It’s an inferior version of Minecraft and it fractures the modding community.its technically better.
microsoft just made it limited and stupid on purpose to make more money off it. which is more infuriating imo.
Yea, back in the day I dreamt about a Minecraft that didn’t run on Java and thus better on the low end hardware I had. In my dreams it just still had all the benefits of the Java edition which is why I now dream of old Java Minecraft
Yeah the infuriating part is not the mere existence of bedrock, but the fact that they purposefully made it suck. It could have been much better than the java version if they did it right.
Also very on the nose for Microsoft
So just fuck everyone who doesn’t play on Pc? There are aspects about bedrock that should be gotten rid of, but it’s existence is for the ability for cross play to exist. I play both versions but bedrock made making a cross platform server for my friends and I (who all play on different consoles) possible.
Instead of making bedrock edition,
they could have focused on supporting JVM, and thus Minecraft Java Edition, for more consoles.But since Java is a C# (also from M$) competitor, they likely did not want to go that route.
Anyways, you can play Java Edition on Linux, Mac, Windows and also Android.
Multiple consoles (E.g. PS4 / Nintendo Switch) unofficially support dual booting to Linux and/or Android.
For Android you can use PojavLauncher,
it even supports modpacks:
https://github.com/PojavLauncherTeam/PojavLauncherI will not touch Bedrock edition,
especially not since it requires you to sign in on your Windows with a M$ account, while my Windows KVM is Ameliorated, which strips the ability to do so, nor would I want to if I could.Yeah I hate the signing into a Microsoft account part. It’s unnecessary and they need to get over no one uses Hotmail.
you don’t need to sign in, you can just sideload the appx package (it’s likely to fail due to license verification, there are ways around it tho, like stopping the licensing service)
Java has had mod support for like 7 years now.
Does it have official support though?
Edit: To be clear this comment was referencing what OP’s post was likely trying to convey. Of course Minecraft has been moddable on Java for years but as the Minecraft help page says it isn’t officially supported. I know about data packs and their support/limitations.
Yes. They’re called datapacks.
“Oh! Those aren’t mods!”
Well, they modify the game, so they’re mods.
Yeah what I was asking about is official support in Java; that’s probably what OP is referencing. I looked it up and the answer is no.
It’s a bit like saying Skyrim didn’t have mod support in 2011 when it released until 2017 when Creation Club content was added. Of course there were mods in 2011 but not officially supported ones.
Even though notch promised an sdk!
He says a lot of stuff, including a lot of stuff he shouldn’t. Jokes aside, his intentions were made clear when he bought out Bukkit than proceeded to tear it apart for the crime of being a better server hosting software than the garbage they had. Pretty cut-and-dry.
For those paying attention that was the first hint the guy might be a little bit of a nazi before he went completely mask-off on twitter.
What are you on about mate. The one who brought the whole bukkit project down was one of the bukkit developers not Mojang. The bukkit developer had contributed 1/3 of all code to the project iirc and protested that Mojang now owned bukkit and DMCA’d the entire thing to hell and back.
At that point it was easier to kill of bukkit and start over rather than to de-tangle and re-write 1/3 of the code.
You think they might have had a reason to do that, something that had to do with them completely stiffing them out in the agreement? You’re acting like they were being unreasonable but this is just a continuation of the white man’s treaty, a tactic where you take a minority of a community, whoever’s the cheapest and buy them out, and then have them represent the entire community. That’s exactly what they did and if it wasn’t for the fact that they had a controlling stake in the project they would have gotten away with it too. Is it at all surprising that one of the developers who ‘played ball’ in the scheme ended up becoming the CEO?
As with all things, if you zoom out and squint you can see the reality of the situation; and what you see is a capitalist organization shutting down a project that wasn’t even competing with them or even a threat because they weren’t under their absolute control. All capitalists do this, and it’s the biggest reason why capitalism is such a dysfunctional and shitty system where inferior products end up as monopolies, by simple dint of hunting down and killing or assimilating anything better than them.
When did he do that? I’m real out of the loop when it comes to modding Minecraft
Back in the alpha days
Also texture/resource packs are also technically mods, because you are modifying the game’s resources and packs are officially supported.
Yes
“Mod Support” means (or at least, it used to) the game has structures in place to allow modifications, not that the company is paywalling mods that they “approve”. I’m not sure what the latter is called, but I’m quite sure there’d be a massive uproar if MS/MJ did that for java edition. I know I’d never play the game again, that’s for sure.
I never thought adding a paywall was necessary. I was more thinking along the lines of a game being made easier to mod and its developers embracing the idea of modding like you kind of mentioned. This could be done by releasing tools to make it easier like Cities: Skylines 2’s recently released editor and Hatred adding Workshop support. I don’t know if official mod support Java would entail something like a built in mod manager, updates to improve modding capabilities, or some kind of universal package for mod files.
This doesn’t need to be done through a service that the developer has any control over. SimCity 2000 had a Build Architect Tool players could use in the mid 90s and sites like ModDB and the Nexus exist.
I’m not sure what the latter is called, but I’m quite sure there’d be a massive uproar if MS/MJ did that for java edition. I know I’d never play the game again, that’s for sure.
There will always be the option of raw dogging files into the game directory or developing external tools like people did with Mass Effect.
They did release official mappings
Kiiind of? Data packs come pretty close and don’t have the massive security issue of just allowing people to execute random jars at root.
Honestly I don’t see the issue here java already supports mods and they didn’t fuck with it and just added a way to do it for suckers as well
Agree. I just wish bedrock was a straight port from the java version instead of being borderline ruined, the only difference should have been better performance from not using java and it being rebuilt from ground up.
I still remember when the Java edition was supposed to get a modding API…
This song came out ten years ago…
Microsoft and Mojang make a lot of stupid decisions. Or rather, asshole decisions. I’m tired of it all.
Here’s some Minecraft communities on Lemmy
!minecraftseeds@sh.itjust.works
!oldschoolminecraft@lemmy.world
Also Minetest
Where’s the modded one? It’s like drugs, give me modded Minecraft, my body demands it
Someone else linked one related modding but there are several other Minecraft communities that are more niche. There’s one specifically for seeds for example.
Wouldnt it make more sense to add official mod support to bedrock than to java? Java already has unofficial modloaders and more people play on bedrock edition
The mods are shit too. I don’t know what their API is like but it’s clearly not good if you have this entire legacy of modded minecraft, a game which is (presumably) way better programmed and they’re actively paying people to do it, yet they can barely accomplish a 10th of the quality.
Even if they were good you’d have to interact with that horse-shit mobile game premium currency model (which absolutely should be made illegal) where you have to buy currency in packs with bigger packs having a discount and are never in sizes that are usable for a single purchase. Having to pay for mods is contentious enough as is, but putting it behind abusive MTX is going to be a deal breaker for the rest.
Isn’t it just because it’s still very new?
We’ll see if the trend holds in a month, a year, and a decade. I think the flaws holding it back will prevent any growth, charging money for mods is radioactive to the community as Railcraft had proven before they were forced by law not to paywall their updates.
Best case scenario we get the Google Play Store where people don’t make stuff because they want to, but because they want to make money, but like I pointed out that MTX scheme is absolutely going to result in bad and confusing payouts which will drive away even those people. If it turns out they’re paid in scrip- I mean minecoins, than at best you’re getting a bunch of kids who don’t understand labour exploitation yet.
EDIT: I looked into it and it’s mostly just kids who don’t understand how exploitative the whole thing is. The API is also extremely lacking.
they srill advertise java for modding even though there’s no “official” support tho
Insert quip about minetest
Reminder that minetest (even with Mineclone 2) feels like “we have Minecraft at home” on a good day
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