The meme is broadly generalizing Israel as a homogenic society that casually murders children on a regular basis and omits that Israel is in fact a diverse society. By doing so it reproduces the ancient antisemitic trope of ritual child murder and blood libel. Neo-Nazis and other racist antisemites would therefore love this meme. From an antifascist perspective this meme is absolutely unacceptable.
That is an antisemitic generalization. The government and military of a nation is only a subgroup of it´s society. How would you like to be held responsible for the actions of your government and military, even if you did not vote for them and don´t agree with what they are doing?
Ok, I’ll correct that to ‘Israel as a nation casually murders children on a regular basis’ to be more accurate then.
Well, that is at least a start. Now could we agree to switch “Israel as a nation” with “The right-extremist government of Israel, it´s military and the ultra-nationalist settler movement” please?
Sus af though that you claimed that a meme criticizing Israel as a nation for killing kids was an attack against all Jews
A nation includes all of it´s citizens, so that is a weird argument that seems to have only one goal, to be a killer argument against any critique of antisemitic propaganda against Israel.
How is generalizing all citizens of Israel -who as we know are mainly Jewish people- as casual child murderers not classic antisemitism? Please include in your consideration, that the narrative of child sacrifice and blood libel is one of the oldest antisemitic tropes there is and put the meme in a context with that fact.
Well, that is at least a start. Now could we agree to switch “Israel as a nation” with “The right-extremist government of Israel, it´s military and the ultra-nationalist settler movement” please?
Israel “as a nation” has been doing this since its inception in 1948. It has never been anything besides an ultra-nationalist settler movement. I suspect you either greatly lack historical context or are arguing in bad faith tbh.
Now could we agree to switch “Israel as a nation” with “The right-extremist government of Israel, it´s military and the ultra-nationalist settler movement” please?
No we can’t, fuck off. Israel is an apartheid state and Zionism is an European settler-colonial movement.
Du scheinst die Art Mensch zu sein welche möglichst simple Narrative bevorzugt und die Welt klar in gut und böse aufteilt. Daher kein Interesse an einer Diskussion, danke und schönen Tag noch.
You seem like the kind of person who runs defense for apartheid and genocide to avoid having to question your unwavering loyalty to the people who rule you, this was never a conversation worth having so I thank you for saving me the effort.
You seem to be the kind of person who prefers simple narratives and clearly divides the world into good and evil. Therefore no interest in a discussion, thank you and have a nice day.
You are absolutely wrong, but I can understand that a superficial look at the discussion can give this impression. However, I argue with anti-Germans whenever I find myself in the same room with them. They position themselves just as indiscriminately as you do here, only in the opposite direction. Anti-Germans are even in solidarity with the right-wing extremist, colonialist Israeli government. To be honest, I can no more identify with anti-German Israel-fetishists who hate Palestinians than I can with the anti-Semitic, Israel-hating Palestine-fetishists here. Both camps are obviously fanatical and far from objective.
It’s cute how you’re staying safe in your mind palace and arguing about hypothetical settlers who don’t support what’s going on.
You know what your hypothetical virtuous perpetrators of a genocide can do if they actually feel that way? Fucking leave. They can fucking leave and go back where they came from and give back the homes they stole.
It’s cute how you’re staying safe in your mind palace and arguing about hypothetical settlers who don’t support what’s going on.
Excuse me? What are you even talking about? Every single time I mentioned settlers in this thread, I did so only to blame them for the situation and called them ultra-nationalists, who are one of the groups who should be criticized alongside the government and the military. So please stop projecting so wildly and instead go with what i actually wrote, otherwise there is no basis for a discussion, thank you.
You know what your hypothetical virtuous perpetrators of a genocide can do if they actually feel that way? Fucking leave. They can fucking leave and go back where they came from and give back the homes they stole.
Calling out antisemitic propaganda when I see it does neither equal taking sides in the conflict nor does it equal supporting illegal settlements of racist neo-nazi expansionist assholes who murder Palestinian olive farmers.
You should really stop projecting so much, communication becomes impossible like this.
This dumb motherfucker keeps using the word ‘projecting’ whenever someone calls them on imagining what Jewish Israelis think
Do you think they’re smart enough to recognize the irony of that before it’s explicitly spelled out to them? I say no. They’re dumb as shit. Like most fascists.
Calling out antisemitic propaganda when I see it does neither equal taking sides in the conflict nor does it equal supporting illegal settlements of racist neo-nazi expansionist assholes who murder Palestinian olive farmers.
Fucking idiot here thinks the west bank is the first time Zionists did an ethnic cleansing
You should really stop projecting so much, communication becomes impossible like this.
That is obviously a derailing attempt and you will probably freak out when I say this but here we go: Sexism against any gender, including men, is wrong.
I think you accidentally misplaced your post, this is not the piggy poo poo fetish community. I Hope you will find a place to satisfy you kink, good luck!
From my antifascist perspective, an Apartheid state killing children is what is truly absolutely unacceptable. If diverse sectors of that society are not OK with war, Apartheid and murdering civilians, it’s on them to mobilize to stop that, not on the rest of the world to refrain from criticism just because the human rights violations their state actually commits are similar to delusional bigoted tropes about their religion. Also, criticizing the actions of a State, even a religious one, is not hate speech.
From my antifascist perspective, an Apartheid state killing children is what is truly absolutely unacceptable.
That´s an obvious attempt to derail from topic and a weird thing to compare a meme with but I fully agree with the statement itself.
If diverse sectors of that society are not OK with war, Apartheid and murdering civilians, it’s on them to mobilize to stop that
What are you organizing to stop the crimes of your government? Would you like to be held responsible for the crimes of your government and it´s military, even if you did not vote for them?
not on the rest of the world to refrain from criticism just because the human rights violations their state actually commits are similar to delusional bigoted tropes about their religion.
Of course not but that criticism should be smart and differentiated. If it´s too generalizing, like this one, it can easily come across as antisemitic.
Also, criticizing the actions of a State, even a religious one, is not hate speech.
Maybe there is a misunderstanding? I assumed the national flag represents not just the state of a nation but also all of it´s citizens?
Israel is not Judaism and it’s not an ethnic group by your own admission. The idea that the Jewish people employ dark magic rituals that murder and consume children is antisemitic. The idea that the police and military of Israel, with the public at broad’s supports, kills children in the interest of national security is not.
We can distinguish between the two. You don’t seem to separate them, which is antisemitic.
Israel is not Judaism and it’s not an ethnic group by your own admission. The idea that the Jewish people employ dark magic rituals that murder and consume children is antisemitic.
Sure, that is why I called it out when i saw the meme …
The idea that the police and military of Israel, with the public at broad’s supports, kills children in the interest of national security is not.
Ask ultra-orthodox Israelis about this, you will be surprised.
We can distinguish between the two. You don’t seem to separate them, which is antisemitic.
You just claimed that the majority of Israeli citizens supports child murder, at the same time you are perfectly aware that this majority is Jewish, now who is being antisemitic?
You just claimed that the majority of Israeli citizens supports child murder, at the same time you are perfectly aware that this majority is Jewish, now who is being antisemitic?
They did not claim that the majority of Israeli citizens supports child murder because they are Jewish.
Piles and piles of children with photographic evidence and multiple parties saying it happened: blood libel
40 babies being beheaded according to hearsay from 1 IOF soldier with no one able to verify the existence of the alleged video: totally real and not blood libel; we must exterminate these savages!
This seems like a derailing attempt but you are touching a point that I strongly feel about. How the western governments and media are spinning a narrative of good Israel vs evil Palestinians is sickening me every day. It´s obviously just war time propaganda and not journalism. The western politicians constant repetitions of unlimited solidarity with Israel, while at the same time nobody even mentions solidarity with Palestinians is a huge shame for the west and unmasks all claims of moral superiority. This gets even more ridiculous when you compare the body counts of both sides and see that the losses of the Palestinians are always so much higher. Also, Gaza population is super dense so imo every bomb dropped there by IDF equals a war crime. I could go on like this much longer but I think you can get I don´t have a one dimensional view on the conflict.
Nothing of that justifies posting antisemitic memes that call all citizens of Israel child murderers though. Let´s criticize the ones responsible instead, the right-extremist government that is full of racists, their military which bombs civilians and the ultra-nationalist settler movement.
Blood Libel refers to the belief that Judaism incorporates the murder and consumption of (mainly) Christian children. Conflating this idea with what this meme is clearly referring to (what happening in Palestine) reinforces the Zionist propaganda that Zionism (and therefore the actual ethnic cleansing that Zionists are currently doing) is intrinsic to Judaism and should be immune from criticism on religious grounds.
But I suspect you are aware of that and are here in bad faith, so in short: no u
I thought we all could have a mature discussion about the topic but I am starting to see that this community is not interested in anything except circle jerking each other of and that people with a differentiated opinion are hated and accused of bad faith here. Enjoy your circlejerk, I am out of this totalitarian cesspool.
Yes the “Jewish state” is a diverse society. Where the the first class citizens are all “good jews” recognized by the state. Any lesser Jews or god forbid Arab peoples are second class citizens.
From an antifascist perspective this meme is absolutely unacceptable
Imagine being this fragile of a person. Log off now lmao.
Yes the “Jewish state” is a diverse society. Where the the first class citizens are all “good jews” recognized by the state. Any lesser Jews or god forbid Arab peoples are second class citizens.
I condemn the racist politics of the right-extremist government of Israel and the social segregation and severe injustice it causes. What is your point?
From an antifascist perspective this meme is absolutely unacceptable
There was this thing you all constantly choose to ignore, called the holocaust, that afaik not just a lot of antifascists see as a reason why Israel must exist, simply because otherwise the Jews will not survive capitalism.
Imagine being this fragile of a person. Log off now lmao.
I condemn the racist politics of the right-extremist government of Israel and the social segregation and severe injustice it causes. What is your point?
Israel is an apartheid state, this isn’t new, this isn’t something that the current government did, this is the establishing principle of the state that has been held up since the start, calling an apartheid state “diverse” like you did in your first post is absolutely incorrect and is not close to the reality of the situation in any way shape or form, it’s pure propaganda
There was this thing you all constantly choose to ignore, called the holocaust, that afaik not just a lot of antifascists see as a reason why Israel must exist, simply because otherwise the Jews will not survive capitalism.
having suffered in the past does not give a group of people free reign to commit those same acts against a separate unaffiliated population, having an ethnostate in the first place is not a good goal, but even if we said it was necessary, doing it through the ethnic cleansing and genocide of another group is not at all justifiable in any way.
treating things as if jews are simply different from regular people and could never survive as a minority in another country so they should not be judged by the same standard we apply to everyone is in itself an anti-semitic view to have, jews are regular people, committing genocide and ethnic cleansing is bad, whoever does it and however noble their goal is doesn’t change that fact.
Israel is an apartheid state, this isn’t new, this isn’t something that the current government did, this is the establishing principle of the state that has been held up since the start
I of course know and absolutely condemn that, again what is your point?
Calling an apartheid state “diverse” like you did in your first post is absolutely incorrect and is not close to the reality of the situation in any way shape or form, it’s pure propaganda
Nope, Israel is the most diverse country in the whole region without question and it is also also the only democracy in the region. Other countries in the region are monarchies or (often military) dictatorships. On top of that, Israel is also the only country in the region that has womens and LGBTQ+ rights written into it’s law, while in all other countries in the region women are being oppressed second class citizens and LGBTQ+ have to fear for their life constantly.
having suffered in the past does not give a group of people free reign to commit those same acts against a separate unaffiliated population
Agreed but sadly, when we look at history, it seems to happen quite often, no matter if we like it or not.
having an ethnostate in the first place is not a good goal, but even if we said it was necessary, doing it through the ethnic cleansing and genocide of another group is not at all justifiable in any way.
I fully agree with that statement. However this does not justify generalizing all Israeli citizens as child murderers.
treating things as if jews are simply different from regular people and could never survive as a minority in another country so they should not be judged by the same standard we apply to everyone is in itself an anti-semitic view to have, jews are regular people
I fully agree with you that jews are just people like everyone else but we should also consider the regular antisemitic pogroms that happened throughout history, which are an obvious motivation for a community to get their own safe space in the world.
committing genocide and ethnic cleansing is bad, whoever does it and however noble their goal is doesn’t change that fact.
Absolutely agree. Please keep in mind that I in fact never apologized any of the crimes of the IDF or the illegal settlers. All I did was criticizing the antisemitic generalization of all citizens of Israel as casual child murderers. Sadly it seems like most people’s opinions are simply too polarized to get such nuances at this point.
You don’t have arguments, you have the trolling equivalent of scruffy lip hair a 15 year old boy will try to call a mustache.
You’re arguing in defense of the slaughter of 5000 children. If you organize them by age, you had to go six pages in before you hit an age greater then zero. And that was a week ago.
You’re sealioning over the corpses of children and trying to ‘I’m just trying to have a mature discussion’.
I of course know and absolutely condemn that, again what is your point?
You do not know what these words mean and you do not truly condemn them, that’s clear by the arguments you make
Israel is the most diverse country in the whole region without question
“Without question” since when are you a middle east expert? How many years did it take to get your doctorate degree on the subject?
Israel is not diverse, an apartheid state cannot be applauded for having the second class citizens be of a different race, by your logic south Africa during apartheid was the most diverse country in the southern African region
and it is also also the only democracy
Do you know what an apartheid state is? Could you give me that definition, and then give me the definition of a democracy, and try to weasel your way out of the contradiction that an apartheid state can’t be a democracy
Other countries in the region are monarchies or (often military) dictatorships.
The UK is a monarchy, but I bet you think it’s democratic to some degree, are you aware that a lot of the monarchies in the region employ a similar parliamentary system?
Israel is also the only country in the region that has womens and LGBTQ+ rights written into it’s law
You can blame CIA funding the religious extremist reactionaries (and also the british bringing in the criminalization of lgbtq people during their colonial rule over the region) for the oppressive laws that exist in the region, but despite that it’s not as bad in certain countries that are more progressive, a lot of the middle eastern countries are on the level of Serbia/other reactionary Balkan countries in terms of lgbtq stuff
Israel is not really better for lgbtq people, especially Palestinian citizens of Israel that belong to that group, they are very heavily oppressed and regularly harassed and even get blackmailed by the IDF due to their identities
You show that you don’t know anything about the region, just repeat the propaganda and pink washing that you’ve been fed.
while in all other countries in the region women are being oppressed second class citizens
it’s very funny that you think this, in a lot of the countries in the region (notable exceptions being US allies like Saudi Arabia) women have the same rights and protections under the law, this has been the case for many many years in most of these countries, women’s rights are lagging behind the west sure, but it’s nowhere near as bad as you have been told, especially in more recent years
Agreed but sadly, when we look at history, it seems to happen quite often, no matter if we like it or not.
“Agreed but” no buts, this is not a justifiable action, the fact that it happened in the past doesn’t justify current day actionsththe fact that the US and Britain committed genocide doesn’t mean we should just give up on fucking stopping genocide, “no matter if we like it or not” we have reached an agreement that we don’t like it, a global consensus that it is bad (other than the US and other western countries that support Israel, they love genocide), so we should stop people from committing genocide, if Russia starts to commit an actual genocide in Ukraine like Israel is doing in Gaza, then you’ll no doubt agree that the world should sanction them, etc, in order to stop them, you just don’t think Palestinians are people like Ukrainians are.
I fully agree with that statement. However this does not justify generalizing all Israeli citizens as child murderers.
During Hitlers rule of Nazi Germany, a very large number of Germans picked up arms and fought against their government, and were killed for it, mainly communists and leftists
But a lot Germans lived happily under and supported the actions of their government
Would you say those Germans that never lifted a finger to oppose the genocide and ethnic cleansing of jews were responsible for what happened? I’d say yes, they did not protest, did not resist, especially the ones that served in the army
Are you aware that the majority of Israeli citizens are reservists that will pick up arms to serve in the IDF if given the order? Are you aware that the IDF has a higher than 80% approval rating among Israelis? How are these people not complicit?
I fully agree with you that jews are just people like everyone else but we should also consider the regular antisemitic pogroms that happened throughout history, which are an obvious motivation for a community to get their own safe space in the world.
We should indeed consider those pogroms, every antisemite in Europe should be killed for their crimes, rather than what happened (governments with the help of NATO suppressing communists and leftists and promoting nationalistic (usually antisemitic) groups)
Also, all you’ve done with this argument is establish that “Jews should get an ethnostate” (I still disagree but I’ll humor you for a second), you did not establish that a noble cause justifies ethnic cleansing and genocide, therefore the actions of Israel are no more acceptable than the actions of british settlers committing genocide against native Americans
Absolutely agree. Please keep in mind that I in fact never apologized any of the crimes of the IDF or the illegal settlers.
You did, continuously bringing up that zionists have a (in your view) noble cause is an attempt at the justification of ethnic cleansing and genocide
All I did was criticizing the antisemitic generalization of all citizens of Israel as casual child murderers.
They are complicit in the child murder.
Sadly it seems like most people’s opinions are simply too polarized to get such nuances at this point.
Nope, Israel is the most diverse country in the whole region without question
South Africa is diverse and was so during apartheid. This doesn’t make it any less of an illegitimate apartheid state. In fact it makes it worse.
The zionist entity actively rejects that diversity by declaring itself an exclusively Jewish state. Palestinians can live there under various degrees of apartheid but they will never be considered equal to the Jewish population.
it is also also the only democracy in the region.
The zionist entity occupies the entirety of Palestine as well as parts of Syria. On that territory lives more than seven million Palestinians. Two million of those are considered citizens of the zionist entity and although they are systematically discriminated against and harassed they are allowed to vote.
In addition to the seven million Palestinians living in Palestine, more than three million Palestinian refugees lives outside of Palestine and are being denied their right to return to their homeland by the zionist entity.
Of the zionist entity’s population seven million are Jews.
Why all of these demographics? Well, of a population of seventeen million, Jews make up a minority. However while all seven million Jews are allowed to vote in the zionist entity’s elections, only two million Palestinians are allowed to.
As a result result of having elections only for the elite ethnic minority, politics of the zionist entity has moved to be dominated by far right Jewish supremacists.
How democratic is that? How democratic is a state that explicitly and unapologetically declared itself to be a state for a minority of the population?
Palestinians enjoys very limited political freedoms and are severely hindered in their abilities to express themselves. They can get convicted by zionist courts for the crime of posting on social media that somebody has been murdered by the occupation forces. Even passively consuming “terrorist” media can land you in jail.
Calling the zionist entity democratic is to make a mockery of the concept of democracy. But even if you believe it to be democratic, how does that justify settler-colonialism and apartheid?
On top of that, Israel is also the only country in the region that has womens and LGBTQ+ rights written into it’s law
The zionist entity is pretty unique in the world by still having miscegenation laws. A Jew and a Muslim cannot legally get married in the zionist entity. All family law is governed by theocratic and unelected conservative religious institutions, creating separate legal systems for each religious demographic, no matter whether the individuals getting married shares these strict religious beliefs or not. As a consequence, there is no such thing as civil marriage in the zionist entity either and certainly not anything like gay marriage.
All I did was criticizing the antisemitic generalization of all citizens of Israel as casual child murderers
The zionist entity is a casual child murdering entity. Zionism is an ideology enabling casual child murdering. The evidence for their evil is overwhelming. But for the people of the zionist entity you can’t really generalise any more than you can with any other population of millions of people. Each of them have the same potential to be good morally upright human beings as anyone else. With that being said, election results and polls suggests that a large portion of that population of the zionist entity subscribes to deeply racist Jewish supremacist ideas. This doesn’t mean that they all share these views or that those who do cannot be deradicalised or that these beliefs are essential to Judaism rather than being offshoots of western imperialism.
Opposing apartheid systems is not racist. Opposing apartheid ideologies is not racist, even if those beliefs are prevalent among a certain ethnic group.
There was this thing you all constantly choose to ignore, called the holocaust, that afaik not just a lot of antifascists see as a reason why Israel must exist
the vast majority of jewish people in eastern europe post-war didn’t migrate to either the autonomous oblast the USSR set up or Israel and chose instead to live in the eastern bloc or USSR proper, so they probably count as ‘a lot of antifascists’ that don’t see a reason for Israel’s existence
Israel murdered more children in 30 days than the supposedly genocidal Russian army has in ultrathin in 560 days.
Curb your whataboutism, will you?
Equating Israel with Jewishness is antisemitic.
I agree with that statement but in this context it’s just a lazy pseudo argument without actual relevance. Israel was founded by Jews, with the intention to create a country where Jews can be safe and the majority of it’s citizens today are Jews. There is a star of David on that flag for a reason, you know. So while it is wrong to equate Israel with Jewishness, simply because one can be a Jew anywhere and independently of Israel, it is also trivial that Israel is obviously a jewish country and because of that, a meme accusing all of it’s citizens of being child murderers, clearly plays with the old antisemitic trope that accuses Jews of murdering christian children.
That isn’t whataboutism, you fucking imbecilic moron.
I know that your water brained trolling is about trying to appear respectable as you justify murder, but the liquid shit vomiting from your mouth is too fragrant to cover up with definitional arguments.
Yes, Israel is a country founded by jews, for jews. That doesn’t mean they get to be an ethnostate.
That implies violence against all non-jews that currently live there. That violence has already been demonstrated against the non-jews that were already there, the Palestinians, who have been pushed to the fringes of society and into the open-air prison that is the gaza strip. The flames of antisemitism simply cannot be fought with more flames of islamophobia. All people deserve the same rights and protections regardless of race or religion. That should be what Israel stands for, not “ethnic cleansing but it’s okay this time because the historically persecuted people deserve to have their turn at creating an ethnostate”.
Like, we understand why the Nazis were bad beyond the fact that Jewish people were their main target, do we not? Because that’s how guys like Trump get into power with extreme anti-migrant rhetoric and an anti-democratic party behind them. Fascists can’t sell their ideology on anti-semitism anymore; it backfires, in the same way Lee Atwater pointed out it does for the N word; so they sell it on xenophobia or islamophobia or whichever public enemy (out-group) they can create, and then further shrink their in-group when they gain enough power and/or disenfranchise enough people to do so without much recourse.
Fascism won’t always be as obvious taking up the old flags of Nazis past; and as such it is incredibly harmful to reduce them to any single hallmark, such as the particular vendetta against Judaism that took place in WW2 (not to mention that those particular Nazis prefer there to be a Jewish ethnostate so they have somewhere to expel jews in pursuit of their own ethostates); it will take influence from and adapt to the blind spots of the culture where it spawns from.
Dying on the hill that ANY criticism of the actions taken by Israel: The State is inherently anti-semitic full stop is an intentionally false argument used to excuse the actions of said state - usually by other fascists who wish to emulate their tiered citizenship/civil rights system for Palestinians where they live for whichever group they don’t like.
Dying on the hill that ANY criticism of the actions taken by Israel: The State is inherently anti-semitic
I never did that, in fact I always get in a fight with people who do that.However, the flag represents all citizens of Israel, not just the government. Learn to think more differentiated …
What I’m selling is that calling all citizens of Israel child murderers is antisemitic propaganda. Everything else is just nonsense you hysterically triggered people made up.
Israel is murdering Palestinians, women and children too.
“that’s antisemitic propaganda”
so the truth is what? what are the israelis shooting at? cuz hamas cant be everyone and everything. children are dying and here you and i are jerking each other off on the internet about moral compasses. cool cool.
Zionism originated from Christianity, has nothing to do with Judaism
Really? I was under the impression that Herzl was jewish, not christian but correct me if I am wrong.
A lot of Judaism is flat out incompatible with Zionism
But I know that Jews are not allowed to kill and steal (occupation is theft of land) by their own rules, the ultra-orthodox are particularly vocal about it.
The Nazis were huge supporters of Zionism
Sure but obviously for all the wrong reasons
Palestinians are semites too
Obviously, this is getting boring, tell me something I don know yawns
You are falling for fascist propaganda.
I am explicitly not taking sides in the conflict. I have solidarity for the civilian victims on both sides and criticize the atrocities commited by the IDF just as the atrocities commited by Hamas. Now I am curious, please elaborate how that equals falling for any propaganda.
I get that you guys only accept people you join your hate fueled, one dimensional circle jerk. It’s OK I wont bother you totalitarians any more. Enjoy your bubble!
The meme is broadly generalizing Israel as a homogenic society that casually murders children on a regular basis and omits that Israel is in fact a diverse society. By doing so it reproduces the ancient antisemitic trope of ritual child murder and blood libel. Neo-Nazis and other racist antisemites would therefore love this meme. From an antifascist perspective this meme is absolutely unacceptable.
Israel is a nation that casually murders children on a regular basis though
That is an antisemitic generalization. The government and military of a nation is only a subgroup of it´s society. How would you like to be held responsible for the actions of your government and military, even if you did not vote for them and don´t agree with what they are doing?
Ok, I’ll correct that to ‘Israel as a nation casually murders children on a regular basis’ to be more accurate then.
Sus af though that you claimed that a meme criticising Israel as a nation for killing kids was an attack against all jews
Well, that is at least a start. Now could we agree to switch “Israel as a nation” with “The right-extremist government of Israel, it´s military and the ultra-nationalist settler movement” please?
A nation includes all of it´s citizens, so that is a weird argument that seems to have only one goal, to be a killer argument against any critique of antisemitic propaganda against Israel.
How is generalizing all citizens of Israel -who as we know are mainly Jewish people- as casual child murderers not classic antisemitism? Please include in your consideration, that the narrative of child sacrifice and blood libel is one of the oldest antisemitic tropes there is and put the meme in a context with that fact.
Israel “as a nation” has been doing this since its inception in 1948. It has never been anything besides an ultra-nationalist settler movement. I suspect you either greatly lack historical context or are arguing in bad faith tbh.
I can see the true part in this oversimplifying generalization.
The same could be said about many countries. Are you by any chance a US american?
The fact that somebody has a different opinion than you does not mean neither.
This will not be the own you think it will
“if Palestinians deserve their land back, so do the Sioux, Cherokee, Seminole and all the other tribes”
“Yes”
This is how complete fucking idiots who never leave their mind palace cope with being told they’re wrong about something
It’s also how fascists erase all content and context from a disagreement and try to whine about civility.
Sorry but if you don´t have anything to say, please just be quiet instead of spamming out of context nonsense - blocked …
Quit being a redditor, it’s embarrassing.
That is a serious offence, reported! /s
No we can’t, fuck off. Israel is an apartheid state and Zionism is an European settler-colonial movement.
Du scheinst die Art Mensch zu sein welche möglichst simple Narrative bevorzugt und die Welt klar in gut und böse aufteilt. Daher kein Interesse an einer Diskussion, danke und schönen Tag noch.
Dein kringeliger Avatar prüft so was von aus.
You seem like the kind of person who runs defense for apartheid and genocide to avoid having to question your unwavering loyalty to the people who rule you, this was never a conversation worth having so I thank you for saving me the effort.
Quote or it didn’t happen :)
Project much?
And the tantrum begins in earnest
Hope you follow your leader, nazi
Pardon? That seems like a baseless accusation, care to elaborate?
@TranslatorBot@lemmygrad.ml English
translation
You seem to be the kind of person who prefers simple narratives and clearly divides the world into good and evil. Therefore no interest in a discussion, thank you and have a nice day.
Your curly avatar is so testing.
This text was translated using DeepL.
Oh, look, an AfD member.
Your delusions are very amusing to read, please go on.
Antideutsche libs when will they learn
You are absolutely wrong, but I can understand that a superficial look at the discussion can give this impression. However, I argue with anti-Germans whenever I find myself in the same room with them. They position themselves just as indiscriminately as you do here, only in the opposite direction. Anti-Germans are even in solidarity with the right-wing extremist, colonialist Israeli government. To be honest, I can no more identify with anti-German Israel-fetishists who hate Palestinians than I can with the anti-Semitic, Israel-hating Palestine-fetishists here. Both camps are obviously fanatical and far from objective.
It’s cute how you’re staying safe in your mind palace and arguing about hypothetical settlers who don’t support what’s going on.
You know what your hypothetical virtuous perpetrators of a genocide can do if they actually feel that way? Fucking leave. They can fucking leave and go back where they came from and give back the homes they stole.
Excuse me? What are you even talking about? Every single time I mentioned settlers in this thread, I did so only to blame them for the situation and called them ultra-nationalists, who are one of the groups who should be criticized alongside the government and the military. So please stop projecting so wildly and instead go with what i actually wrote, otherwise there is no basis for a discussion, thank you.
Calling out antisemitic propaganda when I see it does neither equal taking sides in the conflict nor does it equal supporting illegal settlements of racist neo-nazi expansionist assholes who murder Palestinian olive farmers.
You should really stop projecting so much, communication becomes impossible like this.
This dumb motherfucker keeps using the word ‘projecting’ whenever someone calls them on imagining what Jewish Israelis think
Do you think they’re smart enough to recognize the irony of that before it’s explicitly spelled out to them? I say no. They’re dumb as shit. Like most fascists.
Fucking idiot here thinks the west bank is the first time Zionists did an ethnic cleansing
Fucking good. Shut the fuck up.
You are not adding any thing to the discussion at this point, please stop spamming.
Chew shit from my ass zionist
Oh, and you are? You’re in here pulling a “not all men” about criticism of Israel.
That is obviously a derailing attempt and you will probably freak out when I say this but here we go: Sexism against any gender, including men, is wrong.
I think you accidentally misplaced your post, this is not the piggy poo poo fetish community. I Hope you will find a place to satisfy you kink, good luck!
Conflating Israel’s actions with Judaism as a whole is extremely antisemitic in its own right.
Israel’s regime does casually murder children on a regular basis, it is not antisemitic to say that.
If you’re suggesting ignoring the fact, just because “Neo-nazis might like it”, I can’t stand with you.
I fully agree with your statement. However, calling out antisemitic propaganda aimed at Israel does not equal doing that imo.
I fully agree with that one too and would be fine with the meme if it would have an IDF flag or a Bibi face instead of the Israel flag.
I am not exactly sure what you mean, please elaborate.
From my antifascist perspective, an Apartheid state killing children is what is truly absolutely unacceptable. If diverse sectors of that society are not OK with war, Apartheid and murdering civilians, it’s on them to mobilize to stop that, not on the rest of the world to refrain from criticism just because the human rights violations their state actually commits are similar to delusional bigoted tropes about their religion. Also, criticizing the actions of a State, even a religious one, is not hate speech.
That´s an obvious attempt to derail from topic and a weird thing to compare a meme with but I fully agree with the statement itself.
What are you organizing to stop the crimes of your government? Would you like to be held responsible for the crimes of your government and it´s military, even if you did not vote for them?
Of course not but that criticism should be smart and differentiated. If it´s too generalizing, like this one, it can easily come across as antisemitic.
Maybe there is a misunderstanding? I assumed the national flag represents not just the state of a nation but also all of it´s citizens?
America deserved 9/11
America both caused and deserved 9/11
lol
Israel is not Judaism and it’s not an ethnic group by your own admission. The idea that the Jewish people employ dark magic rituals that murder and consume children is antisemitic. The idea that the police and military of Israel, with the public at broad’s supports, kills children in the interest of national security is not.
We can distinguish between the two. You don’t seem to separate them, which is antisemitic.
Sure, that is why I called it out when i saw the meme …
The idea that the police and military of Israel, with the public at broad’s supports, kills children in the interest of national security is not.
Ask ultra-orthodox Israelis about this, you will be surprised.
You just claimed that the majority of Israeli citizens supports child murder, at the same time you are perfectly aware that this majority is Jewish, now who is being antisemitic?
They did not claim that the majority of Israeli citizens supports child murder because they are Jewish.
Stop making shit up.
Piles and piles of children with photographic evidence and multiple parties saying it happened: blood libel
40 babies being beheaded according to hearsay from 1 IOF soldier with no one able to verify the existence of the alleged video: totally real and not blood libel; we must exterminate these savages!
This seems like a derailing attempt but you are touching a point that I strongly feel about. How the western governments and media are spinning a narrative of good Israel vs evil Palestinians is sickening me every day. It´s obviously just war time propaganda and not journalism. The western politicians constant repetitions of unlimited solidarity with Israel, while at the same time nobody even mentions solidarity with Palestinians is a huge shame for the west and unmasks all claims of moral superiority. This gets even more ridiculous when you compare the body counts of both sides and see that the losses of the Palestinians are always so much higher. Also, Gaza population is super dense so imo every bomb dropped there by IDF equals a war crime. I could go on like this much longer but I think you can get I don´t have a one dimensional view on the conflict.
Nothing of that justifies posting antisemitic memes that call all citizens of Israel child murderers though. Let´s criticize the ones responsible instead, the right-extremist government that is full of racists, their military which bombs civilians and the ultra-nationalist settler movement.
they’re all settlers
Not only is solidarity with Palestinian frowned upon, the US’ only Palestinian lawmaker was censured and publicly shamed for advocating for Palestine.
Luckily, the US is the only country not calling it genocide or war crimes.
Unluckily, really solidifies that we’re gonna be the baddies in WW3.
You don’t get to call other people neo-nazis when you’re the one defending a genocidal ethnostate.
I never did that, you are a either liar or tripping.
People can see what your original comment was in the modlog, idiot. lmao
I know about modlog of course, what are even you implying? Also, please behave, no reason to get offensive.
shut the fuck up, genocidal terrorist supporter
Quote or it never happened (hint: I never wrote anything like that). Also, mind your manners please.
Eat shit and die, fascist.
“I support and give cover to Israel on internet”
“please behave uwu”
“no reason to get offensive”
I see that you have no actual arguments …
Blood Libel refers to the belief that Judaism incorporates the murder and consumption of (mainly) Christian children. Conflating this idea with what this meme is clearly referring to (what happening in Palestine) reinforces the Zionist propaganda that Zionism (and therefore the actual ethnic cleansing that Zionists are currently doing) is intrinsic to Judaism and should be immune from criticism on religious grounds.
But I suspect you are aware of that and are here in bad faith, so in short: no u
I thought we all could have a mature discussion about the topic but I am starting to see that this community is not interested in anything except circle jerking each other of and that people with a differentiated opinion are hated and accused of bad faith here. Enjoy your circlejerk, I am out of this totalitarian cesspool.
Don’t let the door hit your ass on the way out
Yes the “Jewish state” is a diverse society. Where the the first class citizens are all “good jews” recognized by the state. Any lesser Jews or god forbid Arab peoples are second class citizens.
Imagine being this fragile of a person. Log off now lmao.
I condemn the racist politics of the right-extremist government of Israel and the social segregation and severe injustice it causes. What is your point?
There was this thing you all constantly choose to ignore, called the holocaust, that afaik not just a lot of antifascists see as a reason why Israel must exist, simply because otherwise the Jews will not survive capitalism.
But I´m having so much fun with you guys here?!
Israel is an apartheid state, this isn’t new, this isn’t something that the current government did, this is the establishing principle of the state that has been held up since the start, calling an apartheid state “diverse” like you did in your first post is absolutely incorrect and is not close to the reality of the situation in any way shape or form, it’s pure propaganda
having suffered in the past does not give a group of people free reign to commit those same acts against a separate unaffiliated population, having an ethnostate in the first place is not a good goal, but even if we said it was necessary, doing it through the ethnic cleansing and genocide of another group is not at all justifiable in any way.
treating things as if jews are simply different from regular people and could never survive as a minority in another country so they should not be judged by the same standard we apply to everyone is in itself an anti-semitic view to have, jews are regular people, committing genocide and ethnic cleansing is bad, whoever does it and however noble their goal is doesn’t change that fact.
I of course know and absolutely condemn that, again what is your point?
Nope, Israel is the most diverse country in the whole region without question and it is also also the only democracy in the region. Other countries in the region are monarchies or (often military) dictatorships. On top of that, Israel is also the only country in the region that has womens and LGBTQ+ rights written into it’s law, while in all other countries in the region women are being oppressed second class citizens and LGBTQ+ have to fear for their life constantly.
Agreed but sadly, when we look at history, it seems to happen quite often, no matter if we like it or not.
I fully agree with that statement. However this does not justify generalizing all Israeli citizens as child murderers.
I fully agree with you that jews are just people like everyone else but we should also consider the regular antisemitic pogroms that happened throughout history, which are an obvious motivation for a community to get their own safe space in the world.
Absolutely agree. Please keep in mind that I in fact never apologized any of the crimes of the IDF or the illegal settlers. All I did was criticizing the antisemitic generalization of all citizens of Israel as casual child murderers. Sadly it seems like most people’s opinions are simply too polarized to get such nuances at this point.
Democracies that require the demographic majority remain the demographic majority aren’t democracies.
Neither are apartheid States.
Why do you ignore all the arguments I made? Got nothing to counter I guess?
You don’t have arguments, you have the trolling equivalent of scruffy lip hair a 15 year old boy will try to call a mustache.
You’re arguing in defense of the slaughter of 5000 children. If you organize them by age, you had to go six pages in before you hit an age greater then zero. And that was a week ago.
You’re sealioning over the corpses of children and trying to ‘I’m just trying to have a mature discussion’.
There is nothing mature about what you are doing.
It’s disgusting and you are fucking disgusting.
You do not know what these words mean and you do not truly condemn them, that’s clear by the arguments you make
“Without question” since when are you a middle east expert? How many years did it take to get your doctorate degree on the subject?
Israel is not diverse, an apartheid state cannot be applauded for having the second class citizens be of a different race, by your logic south Africa during apartheid was the most diverse country in the southern African region
Do you know what an apartheid state is? Could you give me that definition, and then give me the definition of a democracy, and try to weasel your way out of the contradiction that an apartheid state can’t be a democracy
The UK is a monarchy, but I bet you think it’s democratic to some degree, are you aware that a lot of the monarchies in the region employ a similar parliamentary system?
You can blame CIA funding the religious extremist reactionaries (and also the british bringing in the criminalization of lgbtq people during their colonial rule over the region) for the oppressive laws that exist in the region, but despite that it’s not as bad in certain countries that are more progressive, a lot of the middle eastern countries are on the level of Serbia/other reactionary Balkan countries in terms of lgbtq stuff
Israel is not really better for lgbtq people, especially Palestinian citizens of Israel that belong to that group, they are very heavily oppressed and regularly harassed and even get blackmailed by the IDF due to their identities
You show that you don’t know anything about the region, just repeat the propaganda and pink washing that you’ve been fed.
it’s very funny that you think this, in a lot of the countries in the region (notable exceptions being US allies like Saudi Arabia) women have the same rights and protections under the law, this has been the case for many many years in most of these countries, women’s rights are lagging behind the west sure, but it’s nowhere near as bad as you have been told, especially in more recent years
“Agreed but” no buts, this is not a justifiable action, the fact that it happened in the past doesn’t justify current day actionsththe fact that the US and Britain committed genocide doesn’t mean we should just give up on fucking stopping genocide, “no matter if we like it or not” we have reached an agreement that we don’t like it, a global consensus that it is bad (other than the US and other western countries that support Israel, they love genocide), so we should stop people from committing genocide, if Russia starts to commit an actual genocide in Ukraine like Israel is doing in Gaza, then you’ll no doubt agree that the world should sanction them, etc, in order to stop them, you just don’t think Palestinians are people like Ukrainians are.
During Hitlers rule of Nazi Germany, a very large number of Germans picked up arms and fought against their government, and were killed for it, mainly communists and leftists
But a lot Germans lived happily under and supported the actions of their government
Would you say those Germans that never lifted a finger to oppose the genocide and ethnic cleansing of jews were responsible for what happened? I’d say yes, they did not protest, did not resist, especially the ones that served in the army
Are you aware that the majority of Israeli citizens are reservists that will pick up arms to serve in the IDF if given the order? Are you aware that the IDF has a higher than 80% approval rating among Israelis? How are these people not complicit?
We should indeed consider those pogroms, every antisemite in Europe should be killed for their crimes, rather than what happened (governments with the help of NATO suppressing communists and leftists and promoting nationalistic (usually antisemitic) groups)
Also, all you’ve done with this argument is establish that “Jews should get an ethnostate” (I still disagree but I’ll humor you for a second), you did not establish that a noble cause justifies ethnic cleansing and genocide, therefore the actions of Israel are no more acceptable than the actions of british settlers committing genocide against native Americans
You did, continuously bringing up that zionists have a (in your view) noble cause is an attempt at the justification of ethnic cleansing and genocide
They are complicit in the child murder.
You’re a liberal.
South Africa is diverse and was so during apartheid. This doesn’t make it any less of an illegitimate apartheid state. In fact it makes it worse.
The zionist entity actively rejects that diversity by declaring itself an exclusively Jewish state. Palestinians can live there under various degrees of apartheid but they will never be considered equal to the Jewish population.
The zionist entity occupies the entirety of Palestine as well as parts of Syria. On that territory lives more than seven million Palestinians. Two million of those are considered citizens of the zionist entity and although they are systematically discriminated against and harassed they are allowed to vote.
In addition to the seven million Palestinians living in Palestine, more than three million Palestinian refugees lives outside of Palestine and are being denied their right to return to their homeland by the zionist entity.
Of the zionist entity’s population seven million are Jews.
Why all of these demographics? Well, of a population of seventeen million, Jews make up a minority. However while all seven million Jews are allowed to vote in the zionist entity’s elections, only two million Palestinians are allowed to.
As a result result of having elections only for the elite ethnic minority, politics of the zionist entity has moved to be dominated by far right Jewish supremacists.
How democratic is that? How democratic is a state that explicitly and unapologetically declared itself to be a state for a minority of the population?
Palestinians enjoys very limited political freedoms and are severely hindered in their abilities to express themselves. They can get convicted by zionist courts for the crime of posting on social media that somebody has been murdered by the occupation forces. Even passively consuming “terrorist” media can land you in jail.
Calling the zionist entity democratic is to make a mockery of the concept of democracy. But even if you believe it to be democratic, how does that justify settler-colonialism and apartheid?
The zionist entity is pretty unique in the world by still having miscegenation laws. A Jew and a Muslim cannot legally get married in the zionist entity. All family law is governed by theocratic and unelected conservative religious institutions, creating separate legal systems for each religious demographic, no matter whether the individuals getting married shares these strict religious beliefs or not. As a consequence, there is no such thing as civil marriage in the zionist entity either and certainly not anything like gay marriage.
The zionist entity is a casual child murdering entity. Zionism is an ideology enabling casual child murdering. The evidence for their evil is overwhelming. But for the people of the zionist entity you can’t really generalise any more than you can with any other population of millions of people. Each of them have the same potential to be good morally upright human beings as anyone else. With that being said, election results and polls suggests that a large portion of that population of the zionist entity subscribes to deeply racist Jewish supremacist ideas. This doesn’t mean that they all share these views or that those who do cannot be deradicalised or that these beliefs are essential to Judaism rather than being offshoots of western imperialism.
Opposing apartheid systems is not racist. Opposing apartheid ideologies is not racist, even if those beliefs are prevalent among a certain ethnic group.
the vast majority of jewish people in eastern europe post-war didn’t migrate to either the autonomous oblast the USSR set up or Israel and chose instead to live in the eastern bloc or USSR proper, so they probably count as ‘a lot of antifascists’ that don’t see a reason for Israel’s existence
I wrote a lot, not all, so there is no contradiction.
Israel murdered more children in 30 days than the supposedly genocidal Russian army has in Ukraine,a much larger population base, in 560 days.
Equating Israel with Judaism is antisemitic.
Curb your whataboutism, will you?
I agree with that statement but in this context it’s just a lazy pseudo argument without actual relevance. Israel was founded by Jews, with the intention to create a country where Jews can be safe and the majority of it’s citizens today are Jews. There is a star of David on that flag for a reason, you know. So while it is wrong to equate Israel with Jewishness, simply because one can be a Jew anywhere and independently of Israel, it is also trivial that Israel is obviously a jewish country and because of that, a meme accusing all of it’s citizens of being child murderers, clearly plays with the old antisemitic trope that accuses Jews of murdering christian children.
That isn’t whataboutism, you fucking imbecilic moron.
I know that your water brained trolling is about trying to appear respectable as you justify murder, but the liquid shit vomiting from your mouth is too fragrant to cover up with definitional arguments.
You just don’t have a response.
Yes, Israel is a country founded by jews, for jews. That doesn’t mean they get to be an ethnostate.
That implies violence against all non-jews that currently live there. That violence has already been demonstrated against the non-jews that were already there, the Palestinians, who have been pushed to the fringes of society and into the open-air prison that is the gaza strip. The flames of antisemitism simply cannot be fought with more flames of islamophobia. All people deserve the same rights and protections regardless of race or religion. That should be what Israel stands for, not “ethnic cleansing but it’s okay this time because the historically persecuted people deserve to have their turn at creating an ethnostate”.
Like, we understand why the Nazis were bad beyond the fact that Jewish people were their main target, do we not? Because that’s how guys like Trump get into power with extreme anti-migrant rhetoric and an anti-democratic party behind them. Fascists can’t sell their ideology on anti-semitism anymore; it backfires, in the same way Lee Atwater pointed out it does for the N word; so they sell it on xenophobia or islamophobia or whichever public enemy (out-group) they can create, and then further shrink their in-group when they gain enough power and/or disenfranchise enough people to do so without much recourse.
Fascism won’t always be as obvious taking up the old flags of Nazis past; and as such it is incredibly harmful to reduce them to any single hallmark, such as the particular vendetta against Judaism that took place in WW2 (not to mention that those particular Nazis prefer there to be a Jewish ethnostate so they have somewhere to expel jews in pursuit of their own ethostates); it will take influence from and adapt to the blind spots of the culture where it spawns from.
Hey look a genocide denier
Quote or it did not happen …
Dying on the hill that ANY criticism of the actions taken by Israel: The State is inherently anti-semitic full stop is an intentionally false argument used to excuse the actions of said state - usually by other fascists who wish to emulate their tiered citizenship/civil rights system for Palestinians where they live for whichever group they don’t like.
I never did that, in fact I always get in a fight with people who do that.However, the flag represents all citizens of Israel, not just the government. Learn to think more differentiated …
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What I’m selling is that calling all citizens of Israel child murderers is antisemitic propaganda. Everything else is just nonsense you hysterically triggered people made up.
there it is.
Israel is murdering Palestinians, women and children too.
“that’s antisemitic propaganda”
so the truth is what? what are the israelis shooting at? cuz hamas cant be everyone and everything. children are dying and here you and i are jerking each other off on the internet about moral compasses. cool cool.
“We HAVE to wipe out every refugee camp because every single Palestinian keeps a Hamas commander in their back pocket at all times”
-Israel, completely unironically.
Pocket aces but hamas
It’s exactly what you’re doing. I explicitly said “Israel: The State” and you’re STILL arguing that I’m being antisemitic.
GTFOH with that shit and go defend genocide somewhere else ya dingus.
Thought this was a bit until I saw the name lmao
What about the name? Honest question.
Conflating Judaism and Zionism is antisemitism.
Zionism originated from Christianity, has nothing to do with Judaism
A lot of Judaism is flat out incompatible with Zionism
The Nazis were huge supporters of Zionism
Palestinians are semites too
You are falling for fascist propaganda.
Of course it is and I would never said otherwise.
Really? I was under the impression that Herzl was jewish, not christian but correct me if I am wrong.
But I know that Jews are not allowed to kill and steal (occupation is theft of land) by their own rules, the ultra-orthodox are particularly vocal about it.
Sure but obviously for all the wrong reasons
Obviously, this is getting boring, tell me something I don know yawns
I am explicitly not taking sides in the conflict. I have solidarity for the civilian victims on both sides and criticize the atrocities commited by the IDF just as the atrocities commited by Hamas. Now I am curious, please elaborate how that equals falling for any propaganda.
Aha got it. Into the woodchipper you go.
That does not answer the question, out of arguments so soon?
shut up when people these days cry boohoo antisemitism about Israel’s actions i give no fucks
Chapeau! Thank you for this eloquent contribution, which has enriched the discussion immensely!
Nothing you’ve said has been more worthwhile than a fart in an elevator.
Maturity is wasted on contrarian sea lions, and they don’t even deserve the attempt.
I get that you guys only accept people you join your hate fueled, one dimensional circle jerk. It’s OK I wont bother you totalitarians any more. Enjoy your bubble!
All spaces are better off without bad faith sea lions.
Especially the incompetent hasbara type.
Seriously, I hope you get paid less than minimum wage, because you weren’t worth even that.
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