Yeah, it is. Actual industry practice - impregnate cow mechanically without consent, bring baby cow to term, kill majority of baby cows for veal after separation after a few days from birth, repeat after cows stops producing milk, until cow is used up (around 10 years IIRC, a fraction of their normal lifespan) and also killed for meat.
If a cow escapes the pasture, I wouldn’t be surprised to find it dead in 20 minutes. They require the aid of fences and the protection of farm dogs in the vast majority of environments they live in. Whoever is getting cattle to live 20 years is not doing so naturally, far from it
This is an example of behavior that pushes anyone who isn’t a militant vegan away. I even know vegans who have second thoughts about their decisions over attitudes like those represented in the comment above me.
In all fairness that heavily depends on the type of farming. I highly doubt mass farmed chickens have it better than their wild counterparts given they have about 2cm² of space available before they have to trample on another chicken.
Free range farming however I absolutely agree is better for the animals than living in the wild. Imo given the various benefits (mostly the extremely reduced need for antibiotics, seriously we have to stop feeding them to animals: it’s biting us in the ass already) it offers over industrial scale farming we should move back to it.
In all fairness that heavily depends on the type of farming. I highly doubt mass farmed chickens have it better than their wild counterparts given they have about 2cm² of space available before they have to trample on another chicken.
I’ve seen a chicken who escaped a fox. It lived for DAYS. I’d take a battery cage over that. But I do take your point to heart.
Free range farming however I absolutely agree is better for the animals than living in the wild. Imo given the various benefits (mostly the extremely reduced need for antibiotics, seriously we have to stop feeding them to animals: it’s biting us in the ass already) it offers over industrial scale farming we should move back to it.
100%. My home state has free range laws and I fully support them. Our eggs went up about $1/dozen, not exactly a big deal. I would 100% support humane treatment regulations that nominally increase the price of meat products.
And I agree about feeding animals antibiotics. I understood why they did it in the first place, but now that we know it’s harmful it needs to stop.
It’s incredible how this always goes the same way. Somebody points out the extreme double standard we apply between behavior that would be reprehensible to our species, and that same behavior performed to a different species (that most of us struggle with understanding or having any level of communication with), and without fail, somebody comes along and goes, “you’re being misogynistic/racist by demonstrating the similarity between exploitation of animals and the same ways we exploited humans in the past, using the exact same excuses and mentality as we do for animals now!”
Let’s try applying the standards of medicine here to insemination of cows. Is it consensual? No. Is it medically necessary? No. Is it necessary to produce a particular consumer good (one that we have other widely available options for)? Yes. Are those your standards for medical ethics? I hope not, because they’re probably beneath the standards of the typical human trafficker.
the extreme double standard we apply between behavior that would be reprehensible to our species, and that same behavior performed to a different species (that most of us struggle with understanding or having any level of communication with)
like burying zygotes in the ground and those who survive to maturity, you cut off their reproductive organs and then grind them to dust to be fed to people?
the extreme double standard we apply between behavior that would be reprehensible to our species, and that same behavior performed to a different species (that most of us struggle with understanding or having any level of communication with)
like feeding them the most basic easy-to-digest nutrients and allowing them to live in their own waste until the waste becomes so great that literally every organism living there dies? like we do with beer and wine? yea. we are totally hypocritical monsters…
If you’d impregnate a woman without her consent, take away her baby and then her milk to drink and make delicous cheese of you’d go to jail. If you do that to a different mammal you don’t, yet. Because specisim. We do whatever the fuck we want with them. They’re just cows.
Don’t confuse you not being able to obtain consent from them, with them having an inability to not want something. Doors are not sentient, cows are. This speaks to you having no clue what’s going on in their heads.
An animal can indicate things to a human, i.e., “I want food”, “please scratch me”, or “where is my baby that you just took away”. They can’t sign their name on a legally binding contract but that doesn’t mean they’re incapable of wanting or not wanting something. There is a connection between the two things, namely that their sentient experience involves wants and non-wants, likes and dislikes, joy and trauma.
I’ve read this reply in so many forms over the years, and it absolutely misses the point, every time, without fail.
It’s not misogynistic, the point isn’t to downgrade human women, it’s to point out the horrendous inhuman actions we do to animals and how they absolutely fail the basic moral reasoning we apply to ourselves.
even if not intended you do downgrade human women. Even in the best case scenario a cow is still incapable of holding a conversation on a human level. There are very few animals that can hold a candle to our intellect and by claiming you should treat human women the same as an animal incapable of higher conversation you ARE insulting them and downgrading them.
wow the absolute irony of this statement being downvoted. Turn it around and it would be, rightfully, absolutely shat on for being misogynistic to the max.
These Militant Vegans think they elevate animals to equal of humans, but instead they just reduce humans to the level of animals (or below) in their treatment.
I would use the word proselytizing, myself. Evangelize is a loaded term.
But honestly, zealotry is zealotry. I look at pushy people like many of those I’ve seen in this thread (or whatever we call it in Lemmy), and they remind me of the guy in the subway wearing a billboard and screaming that I’m going to hell if I don’t repent and go to whatever the church of the hour seems to be.
As the saying goes, I don’t eat, exploit or sexually abuse humans either. We just rule it out across the board, while you guys don’t.
You sure do rationalize the shit out of how we’re worse than you because we have stricter/consistent moral standards though! Always some twisted bit of logic to explain that one. You wouldn’t really understand unless you’ve lived through it, but it’s a little nasty little bit of discrimination in its own right - we actually sacrifice something to try to do the right thing, and get treated like subhumans for it. Having an actual rational discussion is right out the window because god forbid you engage honestly with a “militant vegan” who’s lived through, rejected and moved past the thinking you’re still stuck on.
But you do exploit humans. The food you eat, the clothes you wear, actually pretty much everything you use was made with exploitation. The fact you can choose to go vegan and complain about it on the internet means you are incredibly privledged. As am I.
You talk about rational discussion but all I’m seeing from you is the opposite, “all meat eaters are evil”.
The world is complicated and there’s a lot of things wrong with it. You chose one problem to focus on, and that’s great. But just because other people have other things that they prioritize doesn’t mean they are bad people.
I did not choose one problem to focus on. This whole comment is a big “tu quoque” based on assumptions about me that aren’t even true. I buy local food, I get clothes from thrift stores, etc. And I made no claim about “all meat eaters are evil”, this is just the classic “take a vegan saying that eating meat is unethical and interpret it as an attack on your character”, which is another pattern I’ve had just about enough of. The question of the ethics of your diet are an objective issue one way or the other, take your pride and your identity politics and get them out of the conversation.
And veganism is not some byproduct of privilege either. Another obnoxious myth. This weird line of reasoning is mostly seen from the US where meat is heavily subsidized and people are out of touch with the actual reality of subsistence living based on farming, in which meat is a very inefficient return on your efforts in terms of calories. People never seem to reconcile claims like these with the knowledge that countries like India have some of the highest vegetarian populations on the planet.
The question of the ethics of your diet are an objective issue one way or the other
I have a problem with your choice of words
ethics
objective issue
pick one. Ethics by their very nature are subjective. Anything relating to them as a basis is therefore also subjective. There is no such thing as objective ethics. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you did not write what you meant but as written this is contradictory in itself.
Well, this is the crux of it, isn’t it. The principles you establish an ethical system with are indeed arbitrary (not exactly “subjective”) but the actual answers you derive from any such system have a remarkable way of showing that basic recognition of rights we afford to humans (FOR SOME REASON) also extend to animals. E.g., right to life, some basic degree of bodily autonomy, consideration of wellbeing, etc. Basically the only way to construct an “ethical system” that actually “justifies” animal agriculture beyond actual life or death scenarios is one that’s oriented purely around one individuals’ selfish desires (commonly called “evil”) or one that just axiomatically presupposes human supremacy. If you base it on something actually reasonable like, beings experiencing joy is an ideal and beings experiencing suffering is to be avoided (to be brief), you rapidly end up with an incongruency between what’s right and what’s happening in the world today. Even for the purely selfish case, you hit issues with health and the massively negative experience of life without the capacity for empathy. Believe me when I say I’ve gone over this with a fine tooth comb.
take your pride and your identity politics and get them out of the conversation.
we actually sacrifice something to try to do the right thing, and get treated like subhumans for it. Having an actual rational discussion is right out the window
As the saying goes, I don’t eat, exploit or sexually abuse humans either
First off, feel free to open with any scientific evidence that cows suffer the emotional trauma of sexual abuse from farming. Because the thing is, we have thousands of years of evidence and that doesn’t seem to be the correct conclusion. No, calling cattle insemination sexual abuse is a malicious lie.
You sure do rationalize the shit out of how we’re worse than you because we have stricter/consistent moral standards though!
This. Right. fucking. here. You are telling me that my moral system is less than dirt. That I am inferior to you. You don’t talk about it with any genuine respect. If I won’t “sexually abuse” my ethics, I’m dirt underneath your feet. You didn’t argue the points here, because I’m beneath you. Less than you. Let me guess, some of that human-hating-vegan propaganda where I either haven’t thought about it, or I’ve taken a retardation shotgun to my head because I “loooooooove” the taste of meat? Because I can’t just think YOU’RE wrong. No, I can’t do that. Because I’m too stupid to. Right?
You wouldn’t really understand unless you’ve lived through it, but it’s a little nasty little bit of discrimination in its own right
I’m a member of a fringe religion that my country tried to ban, so fuck “little nasty bit of discrimination”. YOU DON’T GET TO CALL YOURSELF A VICTIM OF DISCRIMINATION BECAUSE I DON’T LIKE YOU BELITTLING ME. That’s not how discrimination works. You sound like the Religious Right who think they are victims every time they don’t get to ban Mosques or gay marriage.
and get treated like subhumans for it
I don’t think you’re a subhuman. I think you’re a zealot. HUGE fucking difference. It’s not discrimination when you judge someone’s actions. I don’t call your horrible behavior “discriminatory” because you’re disagreeing with what I do and not who I am. The judgement is mutual. You don’t get to call it discriminatory because I won’t bend over for you and your bullshit pseudoscience.
Having an actual rational discussion is right out the window
You mean by calling the dairy and cattle industry “sexual abuse”? You start being the least bit rational, and then you can MAYBE try to judge the kettle. Let me point out that I was agreeing with somebody about treating cows and women the same being misogynistic, and you just fucking went off on me. Because agreeing that bullshit is bullshit is somehow “irrational” and attacking non-vegans for not accepting that bullshit is “irrational”. No. YOU are irrational.
because god forbid you engage honestly with a “militant vegan” who’s lived through, rejected and moved past the thinking you’re still stuck on.
Actually I was engaging with a decent human being I agreed with, and a militant vegan decided to approach me with a persecution complex. So in this thread, why should I care what you’ve lived through? Do you approve of being approach on the street by strangers and judged?
And I’ve “lived through, rejected, and moved past” your thinking, too. I used to be an active member of a religion that has strong roots in both philosophical veganism and in philosophical omnivorism. Circle of live vs All life is sacred sects. You might not realize it, but a lot of people with a lot more understanding of ethics and a lot more philosophical background than you have spent a lot more time thinking about veganism than you have. And I lived through it, rejected it, and came out the other side.
Don’t bother replying. I don’t wait for a reply on the subway either.
First off, feel free to open with any scientific evidence that cows suffer the emotional trauma of sexual abuse from farming. Because the thing is, we have thousands of years of evidence and that doesn’t seem to be the correct conclusion. No, calling cattle insemination sexual abuse is a malicious lie.
Rambling article that fails to prove its central point. Points out that cows identify humans as “the predator” but for some reason think this doesn’t factor into a negative experience for human arms being jammed inside them? I don’t know why people feel so compelled to defend this. It’s sexual in nature and they don’t like it, end of story.
This. Right. fucking. here. You are telling me that my moral system is less than dirt. That I am inferior to you.
This whole paragraph is literally the rationalization process. You internalize that somebody pointing out an ethical issue is attacking you personally, and from there launch into a whole thing about what a zealot absolute-fucking-asshole they must be for pointing it out, how they must think you’re stupid, how dare they, blah blah blah. I am literally just talking about how a practice is unethical and the negative experiences (like this) I’ve had discussing it with people, where people flare up into an emotional shitstorm instead of talking about it calmly and rationally. You’re doing it right now.
I’m a member of a fringe religion that my country tried to ban, so fuck “little nasty bit of discrimination”. YOU DON’T GET TO CALL YOURSELF A VICTIM OF DISCRIMINATION BECAUSE I DON’T LIKE YOU BELITTLING ME.
I don’t think you’re a subhuman. I think you’re a zealot.
It is discrimination. We take an ethical position and this is generalized as a stereotype to some kind of critical fault in our personalities - incorrectly. That worse forms of discrimination exist, or that you’ve experienced them, doesn’t change that. You seem absolutely callous to my actual 10+ years of experience with this.
Ironically the “zealots” were a Jewish sect that objected to the unethicalness of Roman rule and were trying to throw it off, justifying resistance within the context of their religion.
And I’ve “lived through, rejected, and moved past” your thinking, too. I used to be an active member of a religion that has strong roots in both philosophical veganism and in philosophical omnivorism. Circle of live vs All life is sacred sects. You might not realize it, but a lot of people with a lot more understanding of ethics and a lot more philosophical background than you have spent a lot more time thinking about veganism than you have. And I lived through it, rejected it, and came out the other side.
Now you’re belittling me, ironically. And what was the actual thinking that led you to “come out the other side”? At some point here are you trying to get past all the identity politics and being offended over whatever to actually talk about brass tacks here? What is the grand scientific/philosophical reasoning you used to decide that it’s A-OK to use & abuse animals for human gain?
If you’re referring to Buddhism, I would note how Buddha’s reasoning for when eating meat is excusable does not apply to animal agriculture at all (the reasoning that, if the animal wasn’t killed for you, it’s OK - which fails the basic litmus test of how supply-and-demand works for when people actually go out and buy meat).
Rambling article that fails to prove its central point
Glad you concede.
This whole paragraph is literally the rationalization process
Thanks for admitting to what you were about to do. I agree, you are doing nothing but rationalizing in that paragraph.
It is discrimination. We take an ethical position and this is generalized as a stereotype to some kind of critical fault in our personalities - incorrectly
Please admit that the above quote, too, is rationalization.
Ironically the “zealots” were a Jewish sect that objected to the unethicalness of Roman rule and were trying to throw it off
You are doing one of three things. Either you do not know what people tend to mean by “zealot” (at which point, look it up), or you are trying to change a topic you know you are losing on, or you are arguing in bad faith. Please let me know which.
Now you’re belittling me, ironically
Not really. I am telling you that you’re not the only (or most) educated and prepared person in the vegan/meat discussion. Unless we take “vegans are axiomatically right”, you have a fairly massive burden of proof if you want to continue being offended by the idea that a non-vegan can have a 3-digit IQ.
Litmus test I’ve found over the years on internet discussion - when you try to right the ship to actually talk about the concrete issue, and the other person keeps trying to turn it into personal me-vs-you and who’s-better-than-who - they’re operating in bad faith. “I am rubber, you are glue” replies just destroy any attempt people are having for a real discussion.
Not really. I am telling you that you’re not the only (or most) educated and prepared person in the vegan/meat discussion. Unless we take “vegans are axiomatically right”, you have a fairly massive burden of proof if you want to continue being offended by the idea that a non-vegan can have a 3-digit IQ.
Discuss the actual topic, like I just asked you to. What is the reasoning that’s superior to vegan reasoning?
milking cows isn’t abuse
Unless you consider the fact that the only reason they need milking is that they were forced into pregnancy in the first place.
that’s still not abuse
Yeah, it is. Actual industry practice - impregnate cow mechanically without consent, bring baby cow to term, kill majority of baby cows for veal after separation after a few days from birth, repeat after cows stops producing milk, until cow is used up (around 10 years IIRC, a fraction of their normal lifespan) and also killed for meat.
Talking about cows giving consent for sex is peak insanity. Do you think bulls take a cow out for a few dates beforehand?
No, I don’t. Do you think the behavior of animals justifies human behavior?
no one suggested that.
The normal lifespan of a dairy cow is 5 years. two and a half to 3 years for beef cattle.
The natural lifespan of a cow is ~25 years.
no it’s not.
deleted by creator
no, it’s not.
deleted by creator
the linked article doesn’t support the claim being made.
this is an incredible ham-fisted appeal to authority. what i said is true or false regardless of how well qualified your (irrelevant) authors are.
there has literally never been a holstein that lived 20 years without human intervention.
If a cow escapes the pasture, I wouldn’t be surprised to find it dead in 20 minutes. They require the aid of fences and the protection of farm dogs in the vast majority of environments they live in. Whoever is getting cattle to live 20 years is not doing so naturally, far from it
it makes no sense to discuss consent from cows. do you get consent from a lamp when you turn it on?
almost no cows end up as veal.
Ya know, all you’re doing here is advertising the fact that you have no empathy whatsoever.
Literally nothing else.
This is an example of behavior that pushes anyone who isn’t a militant vegan away. I even know vegans who have second thoughts about their decisions over attitudes like those represented in the comment above me.
I’m not vegan I just don’t lie to myself
Neither do I. If I had my say, everyone would spend some time on a farm and kill their own food at least once.
There is empathy, and there is misappropriation. Farmed animals have it better than wild animals.
In all fairness that heavily depends on the type of farming. I highly doubt mass farmed chickens have it better than their wild counterparts given they have about 2cm² of space available before they have to trample on another chicken.
Free range farming however I absolutely agree is better for the animals than living in the wild. Imo given the various benefits (mostly the extremely reduced need for antibiotics, seriously we have to stop feeding them to animals: it’s biting us in the ass already) it offers over industrial scale farming we should move back to it.
I’ve seen a chicken who escaped a fox. It lived for DAYS. I’d take a battery cage over that. But I do take your point to heart.
100%. My home state has free range laws and I fully support them. Our eggs went up about $1/dozen, not exactly a big deal. I would 100% support humane treatment regulations that nominally increase the price of meat products.
And I agree about feeding animals antibiotics. I understood why they did it in the first place, but now that we know it’s harmful it needs to stop.
i have empathy. cows giving birth and producing milk isn’t abuse.
Makes sense you are a pro lifer
i’m a what?
A person who thinks it’s okay to force pregnancy and birth onto other life forms. In the US we call these assholes “republicans”
everyone thinks that’s ok: how could we have beer, bread, fruits, or veggies without it? that’s not a republican, it’s just a human.
Yes it is (4 minutes animated short with no actual graphic images)
i know what artificial insemination is:
it’s a veterinary procedure.
your cartoon isn’t an accurate representation of what happens on farms,
and
comparing women to cows is gross.
It’s incredible how this always goes the same way. Somebody points out the extreme double standard we apply between behavior that would be reprehensible to our species, and that same behavior performed to a different species (that most of us struggle with understanding or having any level of communication with), and without fail, somebody comes along and goes, “you’re being misogynistic/racist by demonstrating the similarity between exploitation of animals and the same ways we exploited humans in the past, using the exact same excuses and mentality as we do for animals now!”
Let’s try applying the standards of medicine here to insemination of cows. Is it consensual? No. Is it medically necessary? No. Is it necessary to produce a particular consumer good (one that we have other widely available options for)? Yes. Are those your standards for medical ethics? I hope not, because they’re probably beneath the standards of the typical human trafficker.
comparing women to cows is gross. you shouldn’t do that.
like burying zygotes in the ground and those who survive to maturity, you cut off their reproductive organs and then grind them to dust to be fed to people?
i guess grain harvesting is totally evil.
like feeding them the most basic easy-to-digest nutrients and allowing them to live in their own waste until the waste becomes so great that literally every organism living there dies? like we do with beer and wine? yea. we are totally hypocritical monsters…
it makes no sense to discuss consent from cows. do you get consent from your chair when you sit in it?
Are you actually equating living and feeling species with objects?
in terms of their ability to participate in consent culture, yes
it’s not a double standard. it’s justified discrimination. speciesism is necessary for right conduct.
JFC, it’s one comment, don’t reply to it with five other comments. Keep that up and you’re getting blocked. 10 replies from you in my inbox just now.
there’s a block button. feel free to use it.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
Yes it is
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
Man if you just ignore the absurd message they’re trying to promote and watch this kinda stoned as surrealism, it’s a really fun video.
Thanks for sharing.
If you’d impregnate a woman without her consent, take away her baby and then her milk to drink and make delicous cheese of you’d go to jail. If you do that to a different mammal you don’t, yet. Because specisim. We do whatever the fuck we want with them. They’re just cows.
talking about consent from cows is absurd: do you get consent from a door before you put your whole self through it?
Don’t confuse you not being able to obtain consent from them, with them having an inability to not want something. Doors are not sentient, cows are. This speaks to you having no clue what’s going on in their heads.
sentence and consent are unrelated. One has nothing to do with the other.
An animal can indicate things to a human, i.e., “I want food”, “please scratch me”, or “where is my baby that you just took away”. They can’t sign their name on a legally binding contract but that doesn’t mean they’re incapable of wanting or not wanting something. There is a connection between the two things, namely that their sentient experience involves wants and non-wants, likes and dislikes, joy and trauma.
none of this means the consent is a relevant topics for any species except humans.
comparing women to cows is misogynist. don’t do that.
I’ve read this reply in so many forms over the years, and it absolutely misses the point, every time, without fail.
It’s not misogynistic, the point isn’t to downgrade human women, it’s to point out the horrendous inhuman actions we do to animals and how they absolutely fail the basic moral reasoning we apply to ourselves.
even if not intended you do downgrade human women. Even in the best case scenario a cow is still incapable of holding a conversation on a human level. There are very few animals that can hold a candle to our intellect and by claiming you should treat human women the same as an animal incapable of higher conversation you ARE insulting them and downgrading them.
Except I didn’t even say that.
I think it’s reasonable to expect that we treat women better than cows.
wow the absolute irony of this statement being downvoted. Turn it around and it would be, rightfully, absolutely shat on for being misogynistic to the max.
it’s a pretty obvious brigade
These Militant Vegans think they elevate animals to equal of humans, but instead they just reduce humans to the level of animals (or below) in their treatment.
Yeah just use the word militant even if the word after it isn’t even accurate and you’ll be extra correct 💯
Oh I agree, but the topic here is militant vegans :)
militancy would be stopping dairy production. what’s happening here is evangelistic.
I would use the word proselytizing, myself. Evangelize is a loaded term.
But honestly, zealotry is zealotry. I look at pushy people like many of those I’ve seen in this thread (or whatever we call it in Lemmy), and they remind me of the guy in the subway wearing a billboard and screaming that I’m going to hell if I don’t repent and go to whatever the church of the hour seems to be.
As the saying goes, I don’t eat, exploit or sexually abuse humans either. We just rule it out across the board, while you guys don’t.
You sure do rationalize the shit out of how we’re worse than you because we have stricter/consistent moral standards though! Always some twisted bit of logic to explain that one. You wouldn’t really understand unless you’ve lived through it, but it’s a little nasty little bit of discrimination in its own right - we actually sacrifice something to try to do the right thing, and get treated like subhumans for it. Having an actual rational discussion is right out the window because god forbid you engage honestly with a “militant vegan” who’s lived through, rejected and moved past the thinking you’re still stuck on.
But you do exploit humans. The food you eat, the clothes you wear, actually pretty much everything you use was made with exploitation. The fact you can choose to go vegan and complain about it on the internet means you are incredibly privledged. As am I.
You talk about rational discussion but all I’m seeing from you is the opposite, “all meat eaters are evil”.
The world is complicated and there’s a lot of things wrong with it. You chose one problem to focus on, and that’s great. But just because other people have other things that they prioritize doesn’t mean they are bad people.
I did not choose one problem to focus on. This whole comment is a big “tu quoque” based on assumptions about me that aren’t even true. I buy local food, I get clothes from thrift stores, etc. And I made no claim about “all meat eaters are evil”, this is just the classic “take a vegan saying that eating meat is unethical and interpret it as an attack on your character”, which is another pattern I’ve had just about enough of. The question of the ethics of your diet are an objective issue one way or the other, take your pride and your identity politics and get them out of the conversation.
And veganism is not some byproduct of privilege either. Another obnoxious myth. This weird line of reasoning is mostly seen from the US where meat is heavily subsidized and people are out of touch with the actual reality of subsistence living based on farming, in which meat is a very inefficient return on your efforts in terms of calories. People never seem to reconcile claims like these with the knowledge that countries like India have some of the highest vegetarian populations on the planet.
I have a problem with your choice of words
pick one. Ethics by their very nature are subjective. Anything relating to them as a basis is therefore also subjective. There is no such thing as objective ethics. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you did not write what you meant but as written this is contradictory in itself.
Well, this is the crux of it, isn’t it. The principles you establish an ethical system with are indeed arbitrary (not exactly “subjective”) but the actual answers you derive from any such system have a remarkable way of showing that basic recognition of rights we afford to humans (FOR SOME REASON) also extend to animals. E.g., right to life, some basic degree of bodily autonomy, consideration of wellbeing, etc. Basically the only way to construct an “ethical system” that actually “justifies” animal agriculture beyond actual life or death scenarios is one that’s oriented purely around one individuals’ selfish desires (commonly called “evil”) or one that just axiomatically presupposes human supremacy. If you base it on something actually reasonable like, beings experiencing joy is an ideal and beings experiencing suffering is to be avoided (to be brief), you rapidly end up with an incongruency between what’s right and what’s happening in the world today. Even for the purely selfish case, you hit issues with health and the massively negative experience of life without the capacity for empathy. Believe me when I say I’ve gone over this with a fine tooth comb.
it might be a tu quoque if it weren’t for the fact that you set yourself up as the standard, and you’re standing on a lie.
pick one?
no one is sexually abusing animals, either, and you most certainly do exploit other people.
someone who understands your arguments and doesnt fall for them.
First off, feel free to open with any scientific evidence that cows suffer the emotional trauma of sexual abuse from farming. Because the thing is, we have thousands of years of evidence and that doesn’t seem to be the correct conclusion. No, calling cattle insemination sexual abuse is a malicious lie.
This. Right. fucking. here. You are telling me that my moral system is less than dirt. That I am inferior to you. You don’t talk about it with any genuine respect. If I won’t “sexually abuse” my ethics, I’m dirt underneath your feet. You didn’t argue the points here, because I’m beneath you. Less than you. Let me guess, some of that human-hating-vegan propaganda where I either haven’t thought about it, or I’ve taken a retardation shotgun to my head because I “loooooooove” the taste of meat? Because I can’t just think YOU’RE wrong. No, I can’t do that. Because I’m too stupid to. Right?
I’m a member of a fringe religion that my country tried to ban, so fuck “little nasty bit of discrimination”. YOU DON’T GET TO CALL YOURSELF A VICTIM OF DISCRIMINATION BECAUSE I DON’T LIKE YOU BELITTLING ME. That’s not how discrimination works. You sound like the Religious Right who think they are victims every time they don’t get to ban Mosques or gay marriage.
I don’t think you’re a subhuman. I think you’re a zealot. HUGE fucking difference. It’s not discrimination when you judge someone’s actions. I don’t call your horrible behavior “discriminatory” because you’re disagreeing with what I do and not who I am. The judgement is mutual. You don’t get to call it discriminatory because I won’t bend over for you and your bullshit pseudoscience.
You mean by calling the dairy and cattle industry “sexual abuse”? You start being the least bit rational, and then you can MAYBE try to judge the kettle. Let me point out that I was agreeing with somebody about treating cows and women the same being misogynistic, and you just fucking went off on me. Because agreeing that bullshit is bullshit is somehow “irrational” and attacking non-vegans for not accepting that bullshit is “irrational”. No. YOU are irrational.
Actually I was engaging with a decent human being I agreed with, and a militant vegan decided to approach me with a persecution complex. So in this thread, why should I care what you’ve lived through? Do you approve of being approach on the street by strangers and judged?
And I’ve “lived through, rejected, and moved past” your thinking, too. I used to be an active member of a religion that has strong roots in both philosophical veganism and in philosophical omnivorism. Circle of live vs All life is sacred sects. You might not realize it, but a lot of people with a lot more understanding of ethics and a lot more philosophical background than you have spent a lot more time thinking about veganism than you have. And I lived through it, rejected it, and came out the other side.
Don’t bother replying. I don’t wait for a reply on the subway either.
Rambling article that fails to prove its central point. Points out that cows identify humans as “the predator” but for some reason think this doesn’t factor into a negative experience for human arms being jammed inside them? I don’t know why people feel so compelled to defend this. It’s sexual in nature and they don’t like it, end of story.
This whole paragraph is literally the rationalization process. You internalize that somebody pointing out an ethical issue is attacking you personally, and from there launch into a whole thing about what a zealot absolute-fucking-asshole they must be for pointing it out, how they must think you’re stupid, how dare they, blah blah blah. I am literally just talking about how a practice is unethical and the negative experiences (like this) I’ve had discussing it with people, where people flare up into an emotional shitstorm instead of talking about it calmly and rationally. You’re doing it right now.
It is discrimination. We take an ethical position and this is generalized as a stereotype to some kind of critical fault in our personalities - incorrectly. That worse forms of discrimination exist, or that you’ve experienced them, doesn’t change that. You seem absolutely callous to my actual 10+ years of experience with this.
Ironically the “zealots” were a Jewish sect that objected to the unethicalness of Roman rule and were trying to throw it off, justifying resistance within the context of their religion.
Now you’re belittling me, ironically. And what was the actual thinking that led you to “come out the other side”? At some point here are you trying to get past all the identity politics and being offended over whatever to actually talk about brass tacks here? What is the grand scientific/philosophical reasoning you used to decide that it’s A-OK to use & abuse animals for human gain?
If you’re referring to Buddhism, I would note how Buddha’s reasoning for when eating meat is excusable does not apply to animal agriculture at all (the reasoning that, if the animal wasn’t killed for you, it’s OK - which fails the basic litmus test of how supply-and-demand works for when people actually go out and buy meat).
you are attacking them personally.
it’s not about your ethical position, it’s about your personality faults.
lol. from the user who feels the need to announce a block because they don’t like when i tell them they’re wrong.
no one said abuse is ok.
i don’t think you’ve ever asked buddha about it.
Glad you concede.
Thanks for admitting to what you were about to do. I agree, you are doing nothing but rationalizing in that paragraph.
Please admit that the above quote, too, is rationalization.
You are doing one of three things. Either you do not know what people tend to mean by “zealot” (at which point, look it up), or you are trying to change a topic you know you are losing on, or you are arguing in bad faith. Please let me know which.
Not really. I am telling you that you’re not the only (or most) educated and prepared person in the vegan/meat discussion. Unless we take “vegans are axiomatically right”, you have a fairly massive burden of proof if you want to continue being offended by the idea that a non-vegan can have a 3-digit IQ.
Thanks for the discussion. Don’t reply.
This is just obnoxious.
Litmus test I’ve found over the years on internet discussion - when you try to right the ship to actually talk about the concrete issue, and the other person keeps trying to turn it into personal me-vs-you and who’s-better-than-who - they’re operating in bad faith. “I am rubber, you are glue” replies just destroy any attempt people are having for a real discussion.
Discuss the actual topic, like I just asked you to. What is the reasoning that’s superior to vegan reasoning?
Your tone suggests this is sarcastic, but this is 100% correct.
speciesism is necessary for right action.