Edit: Just asked because of curiosity. I’m not actually looking for such vehicles.
Edit 2: So for context, my parents new Toyota has this feature that allows the GPS location of the car to be sent to toyota, then you can see the location via an app on android/ios (it’s supposed to be an anti-theft feature). The data is sent via an antenna that connects to cell towers, which then connects to the internet, and to the toyota servers. “Diagnostic” and “maintenance” information is also sent via those same antennas.
The dealer said it could be turned off, but who knows if they are really off. There’s not a hard switch on the car.
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Doesn’t really look good:
“All new cars today are privacy nightmares on wheels that collect huge amounts of personal information.”
Hyundai’s privacy policy says, for example, that they can share data with law enforcement and governments based on “formal or informal” requests.
Wow. Informal requests means that someone just has to pretend they’re a LEO and Hyundai might share the information.
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Ouff.
A few cars use Android Automotive OS. I wonder if it’s possible to run a privacy focused custom OS on them.
Doubtful. Android automotive OS runs on a single ECU in the car while a lot more are in there running QNX, Linux or some embedded OSes (sometimes there are more than 100 such ECUs in the car). So there’s no guarantee that the “problematic” services are even running on this ECU (I bet it’s more distributed). Furthermore updating / changing the software of a single ECU is done using special hardware or through some kind of gateway ECU. They will perform validation on the to-be-flashed software to ensure it’s from the vendor itself.
And even if you’d get it flashed I can guarantee you that nothing will work.
I watched a video of some People hacking scooters from CCC. Damn scooters. They gave up.
In most legacy manufacturers (e.g, not Tesla) vehicles you can disable/remove the communication module, which is a cell phone modem that interfaces with the car.
For Toyota specifically this is called the DCM (data communication module). It’s a little black box. In Fords/Hondas it’s called a TCU (telematics control module).
In some cases, you can just pull the fuse for the telematics box.
In general, when you research whether you can physically remove this tracking stuff from modern cars, the key word is to use is “telematics”.
I’m afraid it’s going to get much worse. Right now you can at least disable/take out the little box out of most cars without losing functionality for the most part. Soon it’ll be crippling to do so.
Yeah I can’t wait for the day that securing my privacy on my car cripples it to the same extent that disabling bloatware cripples my phones functionality (literally couldn’t send/recoeve calls or texts or use any browser)
Doesn’t seem far off with that Mozilla study honestly
I read somewhere one time that you can ask the dealership to rip out the modem thing for you so there’s no internet. I wonder if there’s a guide or manual to do it ourselves though. I recall it’s towards the trunk area and sometimes near the top of the cabin.
The dealership won’t do it but most independent workshops probably will. You might get into trouble with your warranty though if there’s ever an electric issue, the disconnected unit will show up as a fault code during diagnostics.
Which at least in Germany should lead to failing vehicle inspections.
What’s worse is that in the EU, the connectivity is mandated with eCall, which calls the police with your coordinates in the event of a crash.
Though the EU has strong data privacy so at least you can be semi confident you can opt out and have your data forgotten from the manufacturer
While this is probably the only real solution for complete peace of mind, you may be able to find and disconnect the fuse to the telemetry system as an easier (and cheaper) fix - check out the fuse box diagram in your owner’s manual!
Even your ‘tire pressure sensors’ can be used to track individuals around a city. https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2008/04/tracking_vehicl.html
In 2008 they knew about this? Holy crap I need to do some research.
You can buy a 2023 Dacia Logan and it will still have none of the gizmos and knicknacks that track you and your behaviour.
Whether you call that a “modern” car is another debate, but for sure it’s a recent one.
The great part of Dacia is that you can probably buy any faulty part for a bag of peanuts and a pack of cigarettes and thieves won’t even bother you so no need for “anti-theft” feature
Just hope you’re never involved in an accident, they’re generally pretty shitty safety-wise.
The bad part of Dacia is that last time I checked they only offered diesel and LPG versions (for the model I was interested in).
Your best bet for a “hardware switch” is reading the service manual to find which fuse controls the comms module, and pull it. Depending on the vehicle it may have other side effects.
Maybe we will get to the point where people are selling modchips for cars, like the OG PlayStation.
Define “privacy” and define “modern car”.
In the end, it doesn’t matter what car you’re driving if you bring your Android/iPhone…
There are “privacy oriented” smartphone replacements. You could flash graphene os to a Pixel.
There is not really such thing for cars.
And, again, what is your definition of “privacy” and what is your definition of “modern car”?
Privacy as in either no telemetry being sent back to the dealer, or the option to turn it off (actually being turned off, not just being set to “off”) The digital aspects of privacy, not car window tint.
Modern car as in a car that’s built within the last 5 years.
Also, I’m not actually looking for a car, just curious.
Well the base model of the perodua axia sold in Malaysia probably fits your requirements as it does not come with central locking or even a radio.
What a random recommendation
First, you need to differentiate between “dealer” and “manufacturer”, except in minority cases like Tesla, they are two separate entities.
Dealers, as a rule, don’t have the capacity to accept telemetry data from vehicles. Source: I’m a former dealer sysadmin.
What they can and do do, is download telemetry data stored onboard when you bring the vehicle in for service. This is done through the OBD-II port which has been in every car since 1996.
https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/obd-ii-port-used/
If you’re concerned (or curious) about what data is passed over OBD-II, you can buy your own scanner, $20 to $100 on Amazon depending on features.
Now, MANUFACTURERS, that’s a different deal:
https://www.chicagotribune.com/autos/sc-auto-tips-0102-driving-data-collection-20181225-story.html
For you asking OP twice to specify “privacy” and “modern” (which was very clear what they means, to me at least) your answer is somewhat disappointing now 😁
Huh it’s almost like he was using a socratic questioning method in bad faith to make himself look clever (which failed incidentally) rather than actually be part of a conversation or provide any information.
Telling them that a) dealers don’t have access to telemetry data beyond what’s passed on the vehicle data port and b) providing a news article showing that 3/4 new cars communicate data back to the manufacturers unless you specifically opt out isn’t helpful?
Guessing you didn’t actually read the article?
OBD2 diagnostic data and telematics are different subjects
You are such an annoying person, you know that?
My LEAF has no connectivity since 3g eas shutdown.
Some cars even have cameras inside them now to verify the driver, so consider that next time you have sexy time.
Maybe have them pull out the router at the dealership. I think they have to listen to your request. They may argue with you about it and be like “yeah but you won’t have internet and all this cool stuff” but yeah whatever people have phones nowadays anyway.
Not really, no. It’s all super closed sourced so you will never know what’s tracking you.
I’m still happy driving an older car but the writing is on the wall for the next one I think
Couldn’t you physically remove the antenna?
ctrl+f Honda
Nice
Don’t worry Honda has this telematics garbage too
Damnit…
is it possible for the car to connect to internet without u letting it? maybe just never connect?
It has to connect to the internet somehow. Otherwise how could I see where the car is are using the Toyota app? I could see the tire pressure in each tire and the amount of fuel.
There is also this button at the top (the ceiling?) of the car that basically acts like an emergency button. Pressing it connects your car to someone at toyota that calls for roadside assistance. But idk why then even have that since most people have phones anyways.
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i would highly recommend never connecting it to internet. a small inconvinience for much better privacy. zero trust rule: only enable an abusable feature like internet on things which absolutely need it
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the emergency button probably connects to any cell tower, regardless of your provider (like a phone with no sim), or maybe even satellite? i highly doubt that toyota would use this for anything besides emergencies (although one can never be sure)
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some people still dont have phones, and that is not a bad thing.
- You don’t need touch anything in the car for it to connect to the internet. It’s a brand new car, and the car salesperson just put the VIN in the app and you can see the location of the car. Which means, it was already connected right out of the factory.
damn that sucks
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