Phobia, by definition, is uncontrollable, irrational, and lasting fear for something. In the current geopolitics situation I’d say that it’s not uncontrollable and very much not irrational. Fear, as a fellow Finn, might be a bit strong word, but it’s a definetly a concern.
When I first read that I thought that the response is a bit harsh, as Russian (and Soviet Union) individuals have traditionally been a big part of open source community and their achievements on computing are pretty significant, but when you dig a bit deeper on that, a majority of Soviet era things are actually built by Ukrainians in Kyiv (obviously Ukraine as a country wasn’t a thing back then).
Also, based on my very limited sight on the matter, Russians are not banned from contributing, but this is more of an statement that anyone working for the government in Russia can’t be a part of kernel development team. There’s of course legal reasons for that, very much including the trade bans against Russia, but also the moral part of it, which Linus seems to take a stand on.
Personally I’ve seen individuals at Russia to do quite amazing feats with both hardware and software, but as none of us are in a void without any external infcluence nor affect, I think that, while harsh, the “sanctions” (for a lack of better word) aren’t overshooting anything, but they’re instead leveling the playing field. Any Joe Anynymous could write a code which compromises the kernel as a whole, but should that Joe live in Russia, it might bring a government backed team which can hide their tracks on a quite a bit different level with their resources than any individual could ever even dream about.
So, while that decision might slow down some implementations and it might include some of the most capable of developers, the fear that one of them might corrupt the whole project isn’t unreasonable and, with ongoing sanctions in place (and legal requirements that follow) the core dev team might not even have a choice on this.
In current global environment we’re living in, I’d rather have a bit too careful management than one which doesn’t take things seriously enough. We already have Canonical and others to break stuff way too often, we don’t need malicious government to expand on that with nefarious purposes which could compromise a shit on of stuff on a very fundamental level if left unattended.
Phobia, by definition, is uncontrollable, irrational, and lasting fear for something. In the current geopolitics situation I’d say that it’s not uncontrollable and very much not irrational.
Russophobia is the fear or hatred of Russia or people from Russia. Etymology is not semantics, as anyone should already know.
When I first read that I thought that the response is a bit harsh, as Russian (and Soviet Union) individuals have traditionally been a big part of open source community and their achievements on computing are pretty significant, but when you dig a bit deeper on that, a majority of Soviet era things are actually built by Ukrainians in Kyiv (obviously Ukraine as a country wasn’t a thing back then).
This is simply false. Soviet contributions spanned a large array of ethnicitied and nationalities and Ukraine was a minority in their regard, as were all ethnicities and nationalities.
Though I don’t see why your point would matter. Is Russophobia only bad if Russians have made enough contributions to your field of interest?
Also, based on my very limited sight on the matter, Russians are not banned from contributing, but this is more of an statement that anyone working for the government in Russia can’t be a part of kernel development team.
To my knowledge, nothing at all has been said about working for the Russian government or: this issue. It I’d a blanket exclusion of all Russians from the maintainer list.
Personally I’ve seen individuals at Russia to do quite amazing feats with both hardware and software, but as none of us are in a void without any external infcluence nor affect, I think that, while harsh, the “sanctions” (for a lack of better word) aren’t overshooting anything, but they’re instead leveling the playing field.
Presumably you support much harsher sanctions against all Americans, Brits, Germans, French, and Israelis, then. Are you any of these things? Perhaps you should start advocating for sanctions on yourself.
Any Joe Anynymous could write a code which compromises the kernel as a whole, but should that Joe live in Russia, it might bring a government backed team which can hide their tracks on a quite a bit different level with their resources than any individual could ever even dream about.
That is in no way unique to Russia and we already have plenty of examples of US, Israeli, and other Western countries compromising systems and software. Do just a little bit of critical thinking.
Russophobia is the fear or hatred of Russia or people from Russia.
Ok, seems logical so far.
Linus is Finnish, maybe this is also a lesson: “Don’t brutalize random neighboring countries because in the future they might be in a position to fuck you in the ass.”?
I mean, the Winter War is kind of not a fond memory for them, though everybody loves some Sima Häyhä, one of the most righteous men of the 20th century.
Linus is Finnish, maybe this is also a lesson: “Don’t brutalize random neighboring countries because in the future they might be in a position to fuck you in the ass.”?
I will dispute your framing, but why does it justify collective punishment and hatred if all people from a country?
I mean, the Winter War is kind of not a fond memory for them, though everybody loves some Sima Häyhä, one of the most righteous men of the 20th century.
At the time of the Winter War, Finland had existed for about 20 years, same as the USSR. Both emerged out of the Russian Empire. The USSR sought land and space for military defense against its Northern flank near St Petersburg, which was vulnerable, as well as, ideally, ports to seal from water invasions. Finland rejected every attempt at land exchanges, which was of course their right, but the USSR also, correctly, predicted that Finland would facilitate the Nazi advance and that this land was necessary to repel their war. Faced with an existential threat, they invaded Finland and took much of the land they needed and the war unfolded there exactly as predicted, with Finland rapidly becoming Nazi collaborators and putting down most of its internal resistance. The Continuation War followed, of course. To this day, they teach false histories about this, via the usual government censorship and creation of school curricula.
Sima Häyhä was hated by many early on and received many personal death threats to his face. His rehabilitation in pop culture is more of a thing from the 70d and 80s. Finland collaborated with Nazis and built death camps and was subsequently liberated by the USSR. With fascist groups disbanded and banned and the USSR elevated to the status of primary protagonist of winning the war against the Nazis, those who had supported the previous fascist-friendly/just plain fascist government became pretty unpopular for some time.
For USSR being the victor in WW2. Why these Finnish “russian death camps” not in most of history textbooks?
Also it’s not unreasonable to hate the aggressor. So even if they were building death camps to get revenge on Russkies. It’s not like tribal collective punishment isn’t engrained in our blood.
For USSR being the victor in WW2. Why these Finnish “russian death camps” not in most of history textbooks?
Most history textbooks barely mention Finland at all. They will often not even tell you they were Axis-aligned. You have to read historians writing specifically about this topic. No lazy bones.
Also it’s not unreasonable to hate the aggressor.
Like I said, this does not excuse allying with Nazis. I am not arguing about whether everyday Finns might have had animosity towards Russia for a few years. I am talking about being the willing Northern front for Nazi Germany, deporting Jews to camps, rounding up tons of civilians and keeping them in starvation conditions.
So even if they were building death camps to get revenge on Russkies. It’s not like tribal collective punishment isn’t engrained in our blood.
This was not tribal, it was a nation state and the forces were political. Lapua members were the key Nazi collaborators and they were anticommunist ideologues long before the Winter War.
Please refrain from bullshit human nature arguments to justify Nazi collaboration.
Most history textbooks barely mention Finland at all. They will often not even tell you they were Axis-aligned. You have to read historians writing specifically about this topic. No lazy bones.
Most of history textbooks barely mention WWII by the same notion. I won’t argue I might know too little about the history of Finland. Although seeing how overwhelmingly current day Finns seem to oppose Russia and often mention the Winter War. It does seem that USSR was the worse of two evils there.
Like I said, this does not excuse allying with Nazis.
That’s the point. They had a choise. Either side with the Allies and hence USSR (which fucked them up) or ally with Germany. It was an obvious only choise for them.
This was not tribal
The point is that tribal “us vs them” is just common. Same goes with countries. It depends if the group has a common identity.
Why do you even want to defend an empire?
What on earth are you talking about?
False understanding of your stance on my part. Sorry for that. I thought you’re defending the current day Russian state.
Phobia, by definition, is uncontrollable, irrational, and lasting fear for something. In the current geopolitics situation I’d say that it’s not uncontrollable and very much not irrational. Fear, as a fellow Finn, might be a bit strong word, but it’s a definetly a concern.
When I first read that I thought that the response is a bit harsh, as Russian (and Soviet Union) individuals have traditionally been a big part of open source community and their achievements on computing are pretty significant, but when you dig a bit deeper on that, a majority of Soviet era things are actually built by Ukrainians in Kyiv (obviously Ukraine as a country wasn’t a thing back then).
Also, based on my very limited sight on the matter, Russians are not banned from contributing, but this is more of an statement that anyone working for the government in Russia can’t be a part of kernel development team. There’s of course legal reasons for that, very much including the trade bans against Russia, but also the moral part of it, which Linus seems to take a stand on.
Personally I’ve seen individuals at Russia to do quite amazing feats with both hardware and software, but as none of us are in a void without any external infcluence nor affect, I think that, while harsh, the “sanctions” (for a lack of better word) aren’t overshooting anything, but they’re instead leveling the playing field. Any Joe Anynymous could write a code which compromises the kernel as a whole, but should that Joe live in Russia, it might bring a government backed team which can hide their tracks on a quite a bit different level with their resources than any individual could ever even dream about.
So, while that decision might slow down some implementations and it might include some of the most capable of developers, the fear that one of them might corrupt the whole project isn’t unreasonable and, with ongoing sanctions in place (and legal requirements that follow) the core dev team might not even have a choice on this.
In current global environment we’re living in, I’d rather have a bit too careful management than one which doesn’t take things seriously enough. We already have Canonical and others to break stuff way too often, we don’t need malicious government to expand on that with nefarious purposes which could compromise a shit on of stuff on a very fundamental level if left unattended.
I mean, if my country suffered through the Winter War, I’d consider that a very rational fear.
I’m sure Jews are pretty nervous around German hyper-nationalists too.
Russophobia is the fear or hatred of Russia or people from Russia. Etymology is not semantics, as anyone should already know.
This is simply false. Soviet contributions spanned a large array of ethnicitied and nationalities and Ukraine was a minority in their regard, as were all ethnicities and nationalities.
Though I don’t see why your point would matter. Is Russophobia only bad if Russians have made enough contributions to your field of interest?
To my knowledge, nothing at all has been said about working for the Russian government or: this issue. It I’d a blanket exclusion of all Russians from the maintainer list.
Presumably you support much harsher sanctions against all Americans, Brits, Germans, French, and Israelis, then. Are you any of these things? Perhaps you should start advocating for sanctions on yourself.
That is in no way unique to Russia and we already have plenty of examples of US, Israeli, and other Western countries compromising systems and software. Do just a little bit of critical thinking.
Ok, seems logical so far.
Linus is Finnish, maybe this is also a lesson: “Don’t brutalize random neighboring countries because in the future they might be in a position to fuck you in the ass.”?
I mean, the Winter War is kind of not a fond memory for them, though everybody loves some Sima Häyhä, one of the most righteous men of the 20th century.
I will dispute your framing, but why does it justify collective punishment and hatred if all people from a country?
At the time of the Winter War, Finland had existed for about 20 years, same as the USSR. Both emerged out of the Russian Empire. The USSR sought land and space for military defense against its Northern flank near St Petersburg, which was vulnerable, as well as, ideally, ports to seal from water invasions. Finland rejected every attempt at land exchanges, which was of course their right, but the USSR also, correctly, predicted that Finland would facilitate the Nazi advance and that this land was necessary to repel their war. Faced with an existential threat, they invaded Finland and took much of the land they needed and the war unfolded there exactly as predicted, with Finland rapidly becoming Nazi collaborators and putting down most of its internal resistance. The Continuation War followed, of course. To this day, they teach false histories about this, via the usual government censorship and creation of school curricula.
Sima Häyhä was hated by many early on and received many personal death threats to his face. His rehabilitation in pop culture is more of a thing from the 70d and 80s. Finland collaborated with Nazis and built death camps and was subsequently liberated by the USSR. With fascist groups disbanded and banned and the USSR elevated to the status of primary protagonist of winning the war against the Nazis, those who had supported the previous fascist-friendly/just plain fascist government became pretty unpopular for some time.
This country attacked me. Should I allow their enemies to reach them through my territory? Sure.
“USSR correctly predicted this!”
The timeline is fuwky wucky in your argument mate
Ah yes, the famed “reluctant” Nazi collaborators that just had to help Nazis and build death camps to get revenge on the Russkies.
I wonder why all of these liberals here keep making excuses for Nazis and Nazi collaborators.
For USSR being the victor in WW2. Why these Finnish “russian death camps” not in most of history textbooks?
Also it’s not unreasonable to hate the aggressor. So even if they were building death camps to get revenge on Russkies. It’s not like tribal collective punishment isn’t engrained in our blood.
Why do you even want to defend an empire?
Most history textbooks barely mention Finland at all. They will often not even tell you they were Axis-aligned. You have to read historians writing specifically about this topic. No lazy bones.
Like I said, this does not excuse allying with Nazis. I am not arguing about whether everyday Finns might have had animosity towards Russia for a few years. I am talking about being the willing Northern front for Nazi Germany, deporting Jews to camps, rounding up tons of civilians and keeping them in starvation conditions.
This was not tribal, it was a nation state and the forces were political. Lapua members were the key Nazi collaborators and they were anticommunist ideologues long before the Winter War.
Please refrain from bullshit human nature arguments to justify Nazi collaboration.
What on earth are you talking about?
Most of history textbooks barely mention WWII by the same notion. I won’t argue I might know too little about the history of Finland. Although seeing how overwhelmingly current day Finns seem to oppose Russia and often mention the Winter War. It does seem that USSR was the worse of two evils there.
That’s the point. They had a choise. Either side with the Allies and hence USSR (which fucked them up) or ally with Germany. It was an obvious only choise for them.
The point is that tribal “us vs them” is just common. Same goes with countries. It depends if the group has a common identity.
False understanding of your stance on my part. Sorry for that. I thought you’re defending the current day Russian state.